Bridges Not Borders' transcript

Remembering Refuge Team (RRTeam): [00:00:00] Just to introduce yourself and a little bit about how you came to live here.

Wendy: [00:00:04] Okay. Well, we're actually in Havelock, which is a tiny place west of Hemmingford, the big metropolis. And my name is Wendy. And I have been living here for nearly three years, so a relative newcomer. Very much a newcomer. And I came to live here because I wanted to have a change in my life. And my best friend Grace and I decided to buy a house together. And we ended up here because of a close friend. So that's how we came to look in the neighborhood in fall and I found it very beautiful here. And that's how we ended up living here, without any idea that we might end up, or I might end up doing work with refugees. That was totally [00:01:00] unexpected. So yeah.

RRTeam: [00:01:02] Okay. Thank you.

Pascale: [00:01:05] Okay, so my name is Pascale. I am in Havelock since seven years now. And we were looking because my husband also is an artist. I am an artist. And we were looking for a place to have a bigger workshop to work. So, because we lived before like 20 years in Montreal and we had several different workshops. So, it was beginning to be very expensive and difficult to live. So, we found this place in Havelock with a really huge workshop place, a studio. Really big. And it's the reason why we are here. And I began to be involved on the subject of immigration, because as an artist [00:02:00] in 2013, I did a first project about immigration. Like the Mexican immigration, people working in the fields around there. So, it was a... in fact, I did two projects about immigration. So, something just happened to be a normal thing when there was this event on Roxham Road. It was just logical for me to get involved.

RRTeam: [00:02:31] Oh I see.

Pascale: [00:02:31] So this is the reason...

RRTeam: [00:02:33] You got involved.

Pascale: [00:02:36] Yeah.

RRTeam: [00:02:39] Yeah. Thank you. Grace.

Grace: [00:02:39] Yeah, hi. So, are we just talking about why we're here? Or why we got involved in the work that we're doing?

RRTeam: [00:02:47] I think just more of why we're here. How you came to live in Havelock? Grace: [00:02:53] Okay. Well, I used to live in the mountains north of Montreal. [00:03:00] And in fact, I wasn't really wanting to leave but Wendy and I decided to buy a house together. And one of my very good friends happened to live here. She had just moved back here from the city and had been living here for a long time before. And she said, "Well, why don't you start looking here?" So, we did. And Wendy wanted to garden. And the gardening season, the growing season in the Laurentians, in the mountains, is very short. So, and it's definitely much better here. So that was one of the big reasons for coming down here. And the house prices were cheaper [laughs]. Yeah, so that's the story of why we ended up being here.

RRTeam: [00:04:00] I see. And perhaps and this I think gradually goes into... it's a good segue to go, to start about if you want to share how you began forming the group. And how you found one another. I'm just curious about hearing that part. [crosstalk]

Grace: [00:04:24] Actually maybe I'll-

Wendy: [00:04:25] Oh you start. Grace, go ahead.

Grace: [00:04:26] Yeah, I'll start. Because really, I used to be very politically active when I was... actually when I was teaching at university. Because I was teaching political philosophy, so I was very left. Very kind of on to the right courses, you know feminist, the works. And then I had become, I don't know. My life just took a spiritual turn, and I was [00:05:00] really just interested in the inner life rather than the outer. And I became a therapist. And so, when we moved here... and really, I wasn't involved politically at all during those 25 years.

And so, when we moved here, the summer just after we moved here, was the first demonstration at Roxham Road. By the right wing. The first right wing demonstration. And that was two years ago. And actually, that's where we met Pascale. Pascale came with [A] and we exchanged email addresses and we decided to stay in touch. And there were others too. So anyway, we came for a counter demonstration, because we wanted to make sure that [00:06:00] there was a different presence there. And somehow, I just slipped into this, because it was an obvious cause, right? So, I went to that demonstration and then Wendy organized a meeting with people here about this issue, which was in this house also. And then we decided to start, really a group, kind of, at that meeting. And yeah, it just went on from there. And I ended up being in the coordinating committee, like Wendy. Helping out really, contributing my skills, which is I do websites and stuff. So that's one of the things I'm good at, and I do [00:07:00] communication. So that's my role.

RRTeam: [00:07:04] And Wendy, you're chuckling?

Wendy: [00:07:06] Oh I was. Well, I was just thinking about that demonstration. It was organized. Actually, the counter demonstration was organized by Solidarity Across Borders in Montreal. And the groups who were protesting about the arrivals was La Meute and Storm Alliance who were present that day. And so, we just... I think it was because I heard from a friend of mine, who was in Solidarity Across Borders, about it so that's when we showed up and as Grace said, met Pascale and [A] and some others. And so, it kind of grew just organically. I mean, it was actually two people in Solidarity Across Borders who asked if I could organize a meeting to meet with them. So that's how that meeting came to be, that [00:08:00] first meeting.

And then there was the wool gathering. I don't know if you've heard of the wool gathering? Yeah, so everybody locally knows about it. It's been going for 25 years. It's a crafts and food fair. And it used to be held at [B's] farm on Roxham Road. Right at the corner. Right where the people are arriving. And [B] was one of our very active members, who always had a very welcoming attitude to the people walking up Roxham Road, before the RCMP were installed. People were just walking up the road. And so, yeah, so our first event was really at the wool gathering. And just had a table and started talking to people about what was happening, and about what our views were. And it was just one thing kind of led to another. And eventually, we had a more formal [00:09:00] meeting at [C's] house-

RRTeam: [00:09:03] In early December.

Wendy: [00:09:04] In early December. Oh and, but before that... and that was the first sort of big meeting that we had. But before that, we had actually met with [D] from Plattsburgh Cares and the four of us had gone across. Me, Grace, who else was it? [E and B.

Grace: [00:09:24] Oh that's right, yeah. Yeah.

Wendy: [00:09:24] We found about Plattsburgh Cares, and we went to meet [D]. And with her, we went to the border for the first time. That was in November of 2017. And that's when our border visits started because we saw what [D] was doing. She was going there most days of the week. She had warm clothing to give to people. And yeah, she was doing wonderful things. And so, we wanted to get involved in that way as well.

RRTeam: [00:09:54] Right. And so was that before or after the first [00:10:00] right demonstration that you had that- Wendy: [00:10:03] Oh, that was in November of 2017. And the first demonstration... well, there's actually two that year. There was one on the first of July, and then there was the one on the 30th of September at Lacolle.

RRTeam: [00:10:15] Okay.

Grace: [00:10:17] Yeah, and we already showed up at that demonstration in September with our banner-

Wendy: [00:10:23] That's right.

Grace: [00:10:24] The Bridges Not Borders thing.

Wendy: [00:10:25] Oh yeah.

Grace: [00:10:25] That's what you see on the website.

RRTeam: [00:10:27] Yes.

Grace: [00:10:28] And they were just a few people but-

RRTeam: [00:10:30] It's still wonderful. And how did you hear that that demonstration was going to happen? Did you know that they were going to be-?

Wendy: [00:10:37] Well, we heard through SAB I think.

Grace: [00:10:40] Yeah, probably.

Wendy: [00:10:42] Probably, I think pretty much it was through our connections with SAB that we heard that the demonstration was happening. Because they obviously, also organized it.

RRTeam: [00:10:52] Right.

Wendy: [00:10:52] Quite a large presence there for the 30th of September.

RRTeam: [00:10:56] Okay. And you had already been connected to them [00:11:00] before going to the demonstration or?

Wendy: [00:11:01] No, I, Personally, I... but Pascale, did you know them before the-

Pascale: [00:11:06] No, no, no.

Wendy: [00:11:08] Oh, okay.

Pascale: [00:11:08] No, I was trying to remember how I knew it, but I don't know. For some things, it just appears.

Grace: [00:11:16] But there was a SAB group in Ormstown at the time.

Pascale: [00:11:19] Yeah, but I don't think it was that.

Grace: [00:11:22] You didn't hear through it them?

Wendy: [00:11:23] [F]

Pascale: [00:11:23] Maybe [F] , maybe it [F].

Grace: [00:11:24] Yeah, because [F] came to the demonstration.

Wendy: [00:11:26] Yeah, but Solidarity Across Borders members had also come to the town hall meeting in March of 2017, where there was people who came who spoke. There was quite a lot of people from the community went. And there was somebody, [G] from UNHCR, there was an RCMP officer, and there was [A] from Action Réfugiés Montréal. They came and spoke. So, there was people from SAB who came to that meeting.

RRTeam: [00:11:54] I see.

Grace: [00:11:54] Hemmingford has a tradition of community activism, you know, it's a fairly active community.

RRTeam: [00:11:54] Interesting.

Grace: [00:11:54] So they organized this meeting on [00:12:00] the issue of refugees coming across just because it was kind of in the air. And then, there was what was called “the breakfast people.”

RRTeam: [00:12:21] Okay, yes.

Grace: [00:12:23] Which wasn't really, it was organized by one of the churches in Hemmingford. And it was really an initiative to support the CBSA officers in Lacolle. Because they were the ones who were taking care of everything at the time. Doing interviews, feeding people, everything. Housing them, whatever. And so, the idea was that on weekends, [00:13:00] we would provide breakfast to the people who were waiting to be processed. At the time in Lacolle, because basically from Roxham Road, they were taken to Lacolle by the RCMP. And so, that went on until the numbers were so... had gone up so much that we just couldn't cope anymore. And the CBSA couldn't cope either. So, at that point, the Red Cross became involved, in doing the feeding and the housing of people.

RRTeam: [00:13:34] The humanitarian...

Grace: [00:13:34] But there was people, I don't think you were involved in that Pascale, were you?

Pascale: [00:13:35] No, no.

Grace: [00:13:45] But a lot of people from our group actually were already involved in the humanitarian thing, the muffin people. And there were people in the group like us who felt there was also a point in [00:14:00] speaking up politically. So, one of the reasons why people got involved in this group was because they felt there was a... that they wanted to also just make political statements. And also inform people more actively in the community, locally.

RRTeam: [00:14:23] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay.

Grace: [00:14:25] So there was a very organic-

RRTeam: [00:14:29] Progression.

Grace: [00:14:30] Progression of activities and things.

RRTeam: [00:14:33] And of people coming together and then finding like-mindedness amongst-

Grace: [00:14:40] Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

RRTeam: [00:14:42] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And I'm guessing Hemmingford is the largest town in this area.

Grace: [00:14:48] Yes.

Pascale: [00:14:48] Saint Chrysostome.

Wendy: [00:14:50] Oh, Saint Chrysostome, that's true.

Grace: [00:14:52] Yeah, but Saint Chrysostome is not at the border. So, I guess-

Pascale: [00:14:56] That's true.

Grace: [00:14:56] Hemmingford was really the obvious place where.

RRTeam: [00:14:57] Right. And how [00:15:00] many people are involved with the group now?

Wendy: [00:15:08] Oh, 20 odd people are active. And then there's a much bigger mailing list. Some people who will show up for certain events,

Grace: [00:15:28] About 80 people on the mailing list.

Wendy: [00:15:28] Yeah, yeah, but who don't actively participate. Well, they show up for events, so. Certain things.

RRTeam: [00:15:30] And is there a schedule about, who, how do you set who is going to be observing?

Wendy: [00:15:38] Oh yeah, we have a schedule. And somebody coordinates that. And two people go every Sunday. So yeah, that's all organized.

RRTeam: [00:15:47] And the people, so you said around 20 active members, and then a larger mailing group. Obviously, it's people in this area? So, it's a combination of people [00:16:00] from Havelock, from Hemmingford, from the surrounding towns?

Wendy: [00:16:02] St. Bernard de Lacolle

RRTeam: [00:16:03] Right.

Wendy: [00:16:04] There's people who live there as well. And there's people who live in Sherrington, a little further north. Well one member.

RRTeam: [00:16:14] Yeah. How do you describe the work that you do? How do you... or what would you? And each of you may have your own descriptions and conceptions of how you approach it.

Pascale: [00:16:29] Okay for me, I decided to do what I am good for. So, I was trying to, to have a more artistic approach of the way of treating the problem. So, I had some contacts with groups in Montreal who are taking refugees and helping them to [00:17:00] find work or houses or helping them for all the practical things they have to do when they arrive in Montreal. And I have a project with them. And I'm doing with teenagers and children, I'm actually doing masks. We are doing an exhibition in September in Hemmingford. And I did an exhibition before in Montreal with a teenager group. And what we do is we do masks, and we try to make them do masks where they can say what they feel, how they feel they are actually. Because they are very often, young people in Montreal since six months or not so much. So, they are in school, they are [00:18:00] in special classes. Where they begin to learn French, because very often they don't speak French. So, I think the name of the school is Georges-Vanier. It's a huge school in Montreal and they have a big, big department where the refugees come. And they dispatch them after normal classes.

So, I began to do a workshop with them and it was really great because it was like a six-session workshop. And we did paper masks. And they express themselves via this paper masks and telling their stories from where they were and how they were feeling. And they wrote texts. And so, we did an exhibition in Montreal in August. July or August? July, no [00:19:00] July. And it was ATSA who organizes it. It's Art... I always forget the name. It's a special regroupement of people who are more politically engaged in art. And this time, it was about refugees. So, we did an exhibition with the masks and the text. And now actually, I'm working each week with a new group of kids. And I have more than 20, 30 kids, and we are doing masks. And we are actually finishing them. And the same thing, talking with them. Trying to write things. And this is more difficult because they are younger. And some of them are just there since two, three months. But they learn so fast. It's crazy. It's really [00:20:00] crazy sometimes. How can you speak French like this and you arrived three months ago? It's really really very... And so in September, we have another exhibition with these new masks and a few others. So, it's my way of trying to do something. Because I was thinking that it was an important way for people to understand that there are young people coming, and how they feel. And you can see that when it's young people, people are less aggressive. They are more-

Wendy: [00:20:39] Open.

Pascale: [00:20:40] Yeah, open. And trying to understand. And when they were reading the text, really beautiful text they were written. And when you read the text it's very touching. So, people were more open. So, it's a good way of opening the mind of people who [00:21:00] are more closed to the idea of immigration. So, it works well. So, we're going to try in September in Hemmingford and see if it has-

Grace: [00:21:14] A good response.

Pascale: [00:21:14] Yeah, good response.

Grace: [00:21:16] Yeah, Pascale put up the website with some of the masks and text. You can go-

RRTeam: [00:21:22] Yeah, that would be wonderful.

Pascale: [00:21:23] I can send you those.

RRTeam: [00:21:24] Yeah, that would be great.

Pascale: [00:21:26] So this is my most important thing I'm doing. And it takes a lot of time. So, I'm really focusing on this kind of work.

Grace: [00:21:38] Yeah. Pascale also does translations for us, from English into French.

Pascale: [00:21:41] I do some translation. [laughs]

Grace: [00:21:41] C’est pas ton job préféré. [laughs]

Pascale: [00:21:42] No, better things to do. So, this is it. This is the story. [00:22:00] And because at the origin, we were thinking to do with these masks. We would have loved to do a demonstration with the masks. It's difficult to organize. Because a lot of things are engaged. People are very afraid of things. And it's even difficult just to take the mask because it’s kids and parents are moving. So, it's a very moving situation. You begin to work with kids, and suddenly they disappear because they go in another town. So, you have to try to handle all these things. But maybe if we... so we have more and more masks. And maybe if we have enough masks and with the authorization of the parents. Maybe if we can do a demonstration, it would be something nice to do. But I have to do it very slowly. Not to afraid them. [00:23:00] And to be sure they know me and there is confidence because there are people arriving and they are very stressed. There are lots of things to do, and if you just propose them something they don't understand, they can't just... [crosstalk].

Grace: [00:23:15] They don't know who to trust.

Pascale: [00:23:19] Yeah of course. So, I take it slowly.

RRTeam: [00:23:23] Yeah. And what was a piece, a mask that really has stayed with you?

Pascale: [00:23:29] Oh, in fact there are-

RRTeam: [00:23:30] Many.

Pascale: [00:23:30] They are all very interesting. And you have to go [crosstalk]. They are in French, but you have to read these. Because they are really very interesting. And very poetical. Because the first ones, they were a kid from 12 to 16. And now it's a time when you are very... I don't know. You have a way of seeing [00:24:00] things very different. Very clever. Very grounded but at the same time, very open. So, it gives something very special.

RRTeam: [00:24:10] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I was going to ask where is it that you do the workshop? Is it at the Georges-Vanier-?

Pascale: [00:24:17] No. Actually, it's a place called La Maisonnée.

RRTeam: [00:24:22] Okay.

Pascale: [00:24:22] So it's in Montreal. And really, they are doing this since 30... I think they began in 1990 or something like that.

RRTeam: [00:24:26] But it's a community centre or it's like-

Pascale: [00:24:35] [crosstalk] it's like-

Grace: [00:24:36] It's a centre for refugees.

RRTeam: [00:24:36] Oh. Yeah, okay. That's really interesting. La Maisonnée?

Pascale: [00:24:42] La Maisonnée, yeah. So, they offer help for adults. But also in summer, like summer camp for kids. And help for working after school, all these things. It's really a [00:25:00] huge.

RRTeam: [00:25:00] Yeah. And did you already have a connection with that organization before this-

Pascale: [00:25:06] No, no. So, I had the idea like last year. I proposed them to do this work. And they really liked it. So, it took some months to settle. And then, we began to do the job.

RRTeam: [00:25:08] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And for the exhibit, you said that the one in September will be here?

Pascale: [00:25:09] Yeah, in Hemmingford.

RRTeam: [00:25:21] And will the children, youth, come-

Pascale: [00:25:23] They are invited if they can, but it's far away.

RRTeam: [00:25:35] It's tricky, yea.

Pascale: [00:25:37] It's not easy.

RRTeam: [00:25:38] Did they come to the one in Montreal?

Pascale: [00:25:39] I don't know, because it was three days it was open in La Place des Arts in Montreal. So, I went for one day, but I don't know if they came. I just saw them again. One kid, in fact I saw. But the others, I don't know if they [00:26:00] came because I didn't saw them.

RRTeam: [00:26:04] And where will the exhibit be in Hemmingford?

Pascale: [00:26:06] What is the name?

Wendy: [00:26:08] It's going to be in the Forrest Figsby Hall, which is attached, it's a church hall attached to the Anglican Church. And it's actually part of a larger event that we're organizing. A pre-election event. So, on the 28th of September. So, we'll have the exhibition of Pascale's mask project and we're going to have two or three video corners, where people can watch short videos about the refugee experience. And also, another member of our group is also an artist, and he's creating an installation. A spin the wheel project of-

Grace: [00:26:54] A wheel of fortune.

Wendy: [00:26:57] So I provided him with 30 case [00:27:00] studies of refugee situations, and he's going to use them in his spin the wheel. [crosstalk] We're going to have to see what it looks like, because I'm not clear myself.

Grace: [00:27:12] Yeah, I think the idea that it ends somewhere and then you read that particular story.

Wendy: [00:27:17] Yeah, that's right, and there's different possible outcomes for any kind of refugee claimant. And then we're also going to have, we're inviting the candidates, the local candidates. Hopefully, they will show up. But it's not to give them a platform. But it's for them to meet. It's not like they're going to be giving speeches. But they're going to be there hopefully to interact with people who come. And we'll be already asking them about their views about refugee related issues, so we'll have that information. And then the rest of it, we want to offer entertainment. Because we want to [00:28:00] hopefully bring in people who might not normally come to an event. So, we're going to hopefully, we'll have some live music. And we'll definitely have food and drink and door prizes. So that's how we're...

RRTeam: [00:28:16] Yeah. And how are you framing, like what is the event called? How are you framing it to the rest of the community?

Wendy: [00:28:21] We haven't decided yet.

Grace: [00:28:22] We don't have the title yet.

Wendy: [00:28:24] We couldn't come to it, yet. And yeah.

Grace: [00:28:32] We're hoping to find a catchy title.

RRTeam: [00:28:38] But how does the local community actually generally engage with the issue? Because you also mentioned, your exhibit. You said something about the exhibit here in Hemmingford, yeah, sort of engaging people that might not otherwise be engaged and same with [00:29:00] the event in general. But are most people, obviously there are active people that are probably part of your group. But in general, what is the reaction?

Pascale: [00:29:12] I think it depends. For me, sometimes I talk with people in the neighborhood. And I don't see really change. I think they are sticking in ideas. It's difficult to change their minds. It's so... it's why maybe when it's more story, storytelling, they can feel and engage and understand. Maybe it can change some minds. But when I talk to all the people around my house, it doesn't change.

RRTeam: [00:29:49] Because they think-

Pascale: [00:29:50] They are-

RRTeam: [00:29:51] What is their view?

Pascale: [00:29:52] They are very often, they are against immigration. They are very afraid. And [00:30:00] even when I talk with them and I try to, I don't know. It's a very special... I don't know. Je ne sais pas… ça va chercher something really special. Because it's-

Wendy: [00:30:14] When you say against immigration, is it as global as that? Or is it more specifically they're opposed to the people at Roxham Road?

Pascale: [00:30:21] No, it's more global.

Wendy: [00:30:24] So at the same time as there are Mexicans and Guatemalans working in the field.

Pascale: [00:30:29] It's not the same for them. Because they are useful for them. There is this notion, of it's worth happening. Useful immigration and not useful immigration. And for them when they arrive like this, it's... but in the field, it's fine. Even if the field is really hard. So, it's not... I don't know. But for me, [00:31:00] it's just my small place around me and what I can see, it's difficult to change the mind of people on this subject. Even if they agree on some points, but at the end, they always come back to the same. I don't know. I don't know why. Really I don't understand this kind-

RRTeam: [00:31:19] Yeah, I wonder where it comes from. This fear. It's just interesting. So, I was curious about how the community reacts. And also if there are a lot of, for example, the people who work at the border crossing. They must live around the area as well, right? So anyway, I just wondered if-

Wendy: [00:31:44] And I think, that's Pascale's experience. I think there are definitely people in Hemmingford who are very favourable-

Pascale: [00:31:54] Oh yes of course, certainly.

Wendy: [00:31:55] And it's not... you can't really say there [00:32:00] is one attitude. Recently, with another member [I] and I gave a talk to a Women's Institute group. And there was definitely a couple of women in the group who had absorbed some of the, what I call, incorrect information that's circulating about Roxham Road refugees. And they were very adamant. But then there were other people that the information that we provided or the perspective, I could see that it helped them to understand better. Honestly, I think a lot of it is, what are you exposed to? And because now we so often choose the silos of information on the internet, that's what people are exposed to. So, if you go to some place where people are saying [00:33:00] nasty things or incorrect things about refugees, that's what you're going to take on as the truth.

At the last demonstration last year, for example the one that was called by [J] on June 4th. Where we had a tea party at [B's]. We had a tea party at [B's] farm. Unfortunately [B] has since moved.

RRTeam: [00:33:25] Oh, she's moved?

Wendy: [00:33:26] Yeah, unfortunately. But not for her, she's gone to live in Costa Rica with her son and his family so it's good for her. But, we were able to talk to some of the people. You talked, I talked with people. Several of us actually talked with the demonstrators who were willing to talk to us. I heard things at that time. One man was adamant that last year, i.e. that in 2017, 150,000 people had crossed at Roxham Road.

RRTeam: [00:33:49] Oh my goodness.

Wendy: [00:33:58] And I said, [00:34:00] "It was actually about 20,000." And he said, "Oh, no, no. I have my sources." And so, when you try to engage, what are your sources? It's like, "Well, I found out the real information." The government... because in his mind, the government information was always false.

Pascale: [00:34:21] Yeah, it's really something that comes back always a fear of the government. A lot of people don't believe the government. So, it's like a mix of the things they read on the web, kind of fear of what people are seeing, the government they don't believe them. It's more like so they retract on their knowledge of a mixture of things. Very, doesn't make sense.

RRTeam: [00:34:52] And when they say the government, do they say the government? Or do they say Justin Trudeau? Or the Liberals?

Pascale: [00:34:56] No I think they say... Some is Justin Trudeau, but I think it's also the power. It's the kind of vision of a power that says lies. And they have to find themself the information because the government information is not right. Which is not totally wrong. But so, it's difficult because when you talk with them, you have to go through all these things. All [00:35:00] the ideas on different subjects. And it's... how do you say?

Grace: [00:35:48] It's like a parallel world. And they live in a world that's like so far out.

Wendy: [00:35:57] There was one young man, who was very... [00:36:00] he wanted to engage and talk with me. He was very polite. And he came from Toronto. And he's worried because his white ethnicity and culture he thinks, is under threat by the arrivals of non-Europeans essentially. And the fact that he was there, I don't know exactly if you would call him a white supremacist but certainly a lot of the things he said to me were in that vein. And that kind of... that was one element as well.

Pascale: [00:36:42] Yeah I think like in Europe, the theory of the replacements, you know?

Wendy: [00:36:46] Oh yes, which is that's right. The code word for white supremacy, what is those 14 words? I can't remember now. They have this thing, that they say. The 14 words. [00:37:00] So, there's deep things that go on. The reasons why people believe what they believe. And why they are afraid. We all have deep, things happening psychologically.

Pascale: [00:37:15] And also, one thing was always come back when you talk with them. It's, "The government doesn't help us. We don't have money. So why do we have to help others?" It's always this. "So why the government help the others, and they don't help us?" And this is something always coming back, always coming back.

RRTeam: [00:37:42] Has that been your experience too?

Grace: [00:37:46] Well, I think I'd just like to backtrack a little bit. Because you asked us about what we're doing in the group. And actually, since it came [00:38:00] about very organically, we weren't... at the beginning, we just saw ourselves as a local group, who would just raise awareness locally about this issue and give out information and stuff. And basically, at some point, we got together, and we really kind of just brainstormed about what it was that we were actually doing. What was our mission? What was our goal? Whatever. And we came up... and we looked at, what are we actually doing? And then also, what do we want to be doing?

And so, we have three types of activities. One is direct support for refugees at the border. [00:39:00] And that's the group that goes to the border on Sundays. But also, we are liaising with the RCMP. Because at the beginning, the RCMP weren't really training the officers that were there. And some of them were totally correct and others were really hostile. And so, when you read our blog, you'll see that at the beginning, we realized that it was actually good to just write what happened. Just keep track of that. And in fact, the RCMP turned out to be quite open to talking to us. And they just changed to a younger liaison officer, and he was very keen on establishing good relations with the population. And so, [00:40:00] when we talked to them, they actually really listened. And they looked at the blog, and we brought up things. And they said they would look at the issue. And really, they introduced better training for the officers. And when we observe anything that doesn't seem okay to us, we'll write to them and they'll reply and investigate. Because they have video footage of everything that happened. And so, we were actually really able to make a change there. Because we were able to tell them what our experiences of the refugees that come to the border. That they're afraid. They're especially afraid of the police. They're afraid of being arrested. And they don't know how they are going to be [00:41:00] treated. And when we're there at the border, we experience a stress. And the fear. And so, we were able to really just tell them about that. And that this is a very specific situation that asks for very specific response. Like maybe not the usual.

Anyway, over time they seem to really have got that. And changed the training. And there's a lot less of the hostile behaviour that we observed at the beginning. It's not totally gone. But it's a lot better. So that's the first. The direct support. The second is, [00:42:00] and that's what changed a lot, is sharing information with the local population. At the beginning, we just wanted to share information locally. But what happened is that basically, we started being contacted by journalists. And they wanted interviews and this and that. And so, basically the information sharing is done through the website. And oh actually, we now also have a page for refugees on our website in English, French, and Spanish, with information for refugees, who are thinking of crossing at Roxham Road.

And we're also using the website as a resource for information, obviously with the blog. [00:43:00] And we also came up with a document. The Ten Myths and Facts. Again, that was originally just thought as a local resource that we could give out to people. But we realized that actually, we do get traffic on the website. And people look at the website. So, it's like, the information sharing has turned out to be much more than just local. It's actually national and international. So that was surprising to us. But, well that's... that's what's happening.

And the third thing is lobbying. So, we're in touch with the local candidates. [00:44:00] Like, Wendy, do you want to say something about that? I'm kind of running out of steam.

Wendy: [00:44:08] Well we did actually meet... we met with the local MPs and also the member of the National Assembly in Quebec. We met with her. We also, last year, we had an opportunity to meet with a parliamentary secretary to, Ralph Goodale's parliamentary secretary who was on a visit to Lacolle. I've forgotten his name now. He's not the same one anymore. So, we had that meeting as well. And, yeah. And we've also written letters and stuff like that to the Prime Minister, to the various powers that be about the STCA and, more recently, about the [00:45:00] changes to refugee law in the Omnibus bill, which is... I was so shocked to find out that it's retroactive to the day that the bill was presented to Parliament. Which I found that absolutely just so shocking that people who came here are now being told that they no longer can go through the IRB process. People as of March, who if they had applied in the United States or in other countries. So, I think that's the main kind of lobbying activity that we've been doing.

Grace: [00:45:40] And then we also just liaise with groups. Like the Table de concertation in Montreal. And with [G] from the UNHCR and what's his name? [K] Wendy: [00:45:56] We met with the representative last summer when he [00:46:00] came, yeah. [00:46:00] And various other, people just contact us because they find us on the net.

RRTeam: [00:46:10] [] I'm curious. So, Wendy, I think you're the one who up keeps the blog?

Wendy: [00:46:13] Yeah, I write it up.

RRTeam: [00:46:14] Oh you write it up? Right. And how did you start that practice of writing?

Wendy: [00:46:23] Well, it was [C's] idea. The first time that we went, and she said, "Oh it would be fun if we had that up there on our website." So, I started just writing the blog. And then every time people go, they send the report to me, of what they've seen. Both, if... well, you can see from the entries yourself. We don't always know where people are coming from because we can't necessarily always ask. Because some people are just not wanting to talk. And how the RCMP behave. How they treat the, how they respond. And I just want to say [00:47:00] about the RCMP, there was one incident that I witnessed which I complained about and they removed that officer from working at the border. Now, that wasn't just because of that one incident, but apparently some other officers had noticed that he wasn't really maybe suitable for that kind of work. So, so...

Grace: [00:47:27] Well the fact that there was a complaint. When they receive information from us, they treat it as a complaint. So, there's a complaint procedure, and that helps them then also make decisions about letting people go because... actually, it turns out to be. And they think of us, this is not official, but they think of us as their quality control.

Wendy: [00:47:59] That was [L] who said that.

Grace: [00:48:00] [00:48:00] Yeah, but they actually really think that.

Wendy: [00:48:04] No, he was serious. No, no, no, I know.

Grace: [00:48:07] Which is interesting. Really.

RRTeam: [00:48:10] Is there a high turnover of RCMP officers?

Grace: [00:48:13] There was at some point. Because they just couldn't get enough staff. But now they make sure that there's a certain amount. That there's always officers there who are there more long term. And who are experienced and who... so it's not just officers who just happen to be there for three months or so. So that way, they were actually able to improve the quality of...

RRTeam: [00:48:42] How have you negotiated... because you go across the border, right? And what do you call it, sort of witnessing border?

Grace: [00:48:53] Welcoming.

RRTeam: [00:48:54] Accompanying?

Grace: [00:48:55] Welcoming.

RRTeam: [00:48:55] Welcoming.

Grace: [00:48:56] Yeah. Because we want people to know that they're [00:49:00] welcomed. At least by us [laughs].

RRTeam: [00:49:02] Yeah, can you just talk a little bit about how you started doing, I know you said you're connected with Plattsburgh Cares. But could you just talk a little bit more about that and any sort of challenges you've faced? Even as you're crossing the border quite regularly?

Grace: [00:49:18] Wendy, do you want to?

Wendy: [00:49:20] Well, there have been times when crossing the border, that the American customs border officers they're perplexed or they're unhappy with what we're doing. And at least two or three times, I've been pulled over and had to go into the building to talk about why we're doing it. And hear a rather long lecture from one case. […] I remember once there was a young woman [00:50:00] who was just starting out working at the border and she was like... she got really flustered and she went and talked with a couple of the other officers and came back. And then had me get out of the car. It became quite complicated.

Pascale: [00:50:17] When they are younger, it's more difficult. Really often. Because they just don't know what they have to do.

Wendy: [00:50:18] That's right. What are these people doing?

Grace: [00:50:18] We've also learned to cross locally in Hemmingford and not in Lacolle. Because Lacolle is this huge operation. And when you're pulled over, then in Lacolle you just have to wait for so long. And really, our purpose is to be there when people arrive from the bus. So, if we miss their arrival then that's it. I know I was once... this was like Christmas Eve. [00:51:00] Was that 2017?

Wendy: [00:51:02] You mean when we went with the cookies?

Grace: [00:51:05] The two of us went. Yeah, with the cookies. So, we went with cookies. We wanted to give cookies to people that came over, and to the RCMP officers and whatever. So, this wasn't a group policy because there was opposition in the group, but we decided to just do it personally. So, we went. And I was driving. So, I was very naïve at the time, so I would say to the officer at the border, "Yeah, yeah. We are going to give cookies to people crossing at Roxham Road." So, this ended up being a huge interrogation. And they sent a Border... what do you call them?

Wendy: [00:51:47] Patrol. Border Patrol.

Grace: [00:51:48] Border Patrol.

RRTeam: [00:51:49] US?

Grace: [00:51:49] Car after us to follow us, to find out what we were really doing. [00:52:00] This was the only time that we were actually investigated by the Border Patrol. And so anyway, we ended up having a very nice chat with the Border Patrol officer, who was probably bored. And he told us that basically their suspicion was that we would help smuggle people into the US-

Wendy: [00:52:26] By giving them cookies.

Grace: [00:52:28] By giving them... no, no, no. [laughs] [crosstalk]. Cookies, cookies, cookies! [laughs]

Wendy: [00:52:35] Of course that's not true but go on Grace.

Grace: [00:52:40] Yeah, so anyway, after he realized that we were seriously really just wanting to be there for the refugees, he left. And that was the end of that.

Wendy: [00:52:52] Did he take a cookie? [laughs] I can't remember.

Grace: [00:52:58] I don't know. [00:53:00] I don't remember.

Pascale: [00:53:01] They don't have the right to do it, not to take cookie.

Grace: [00:53:04] I don't think we offered him one. [crosstalk] but the taxi driver took a cookie. And I don't think the refugee did. There was only one who came over that time, right?

Wendy: [00:53:15] Yeah, it was pretty quiet.

RRTeam: [00:53:17] So generally, it's RCMP officers who are on the other side. But you generally don't run into CBP on the American side? Only when you're- Wendy: [00:53:24] Once. I have.

Grace: [00:53:24] Once. RRTeam: [00:53:24] Really?

Wendy: [00:53:24] I did once too. As well as that one instant. An officer pulled up. But again, we just chatted. And he seemed a bit bored. And then I saw a taxi coming and I said, "Well, I've got to go now and do my work." And he said, "Oh yeah, okay." And he just drove off.

RRTeam: [00:53:47] Hm.

Grace: [00:53:47] And when we arrive, usually we talk to the RCMP officers. Because of course they have to come out and see what's happening. So, they come out of their building. And [00:54:00] most of the time, officers are quite friendly, and you can ask them, "Has it been quiet today?" Or, "Has there been a lot of people?" And they tell you a little bit if they want to. If they don't, they don't.

Wendy: [00:54:13] Some say that they're not allowed to tell us anything.

Grace: [00:54:16] Yeah. They go by the book. But some are just quite relaxed about it.

Wendy: [00:54:22] But of course, there is a problem with the ICE interceptions that are happening in the States. And of course, that's only gotten so much worse in the last months. So, we are concerned that people are being intercepted on buses or trains coming to Plattsburgh. And we do get now more requests, email contacts from people who are wanting to cross at Roxham Road and some of them are very concerned about interception of course by [00:55:00] ICE. And the ACLU is taking ICE to court. Because I think about those interceptions. They don't actually technically have the right to board buses and trains to check people.

Grace: [00:55:17] Oh, I didn't know that.

Wendy: [00:55:18] Yeah, and it's the American Council… Civil Liberties Union.

Grace: [00:55:26] And we do observe that more people now come by Uber or private taxis or whatever. There is less people arriving by bus or train.

RRTeam: [00:55:32] Okay. And so, have you seen an uptick since?

Wendy: [00:55:43] Well yes, well there was... there's more people arrive in the summer. There has been an increase in June of people crossing. And two Sundays ago, there was 18 people who crossed when we were there. [00:56:00] But last Sunday, it was seven when I was there. So, there are bound to be days when there’s more people crossing. But overall, according to my calculations, in the first half of this year, there's been a decrease of 37% compared to 2018. In terms of the people crossing. Those are from the Immigration statistics online.

RRTeam: [00:56:04] Right yeah.

Grace: [00:56:04] Yeah. It's definitely less people crossing.

Pascale: [00:56:04] But now, if they take private transport, maybe if we arrive at the time of the bus, there is less people in the bus but maybe more all along the day. Grace: [00:56:49] Yeah, but if you look at the statistics, it's definitely less. Pascale: [00:56:55] Okay. Hm.

RRTeam: [00:56:57] And these are... the people who are contacting [00:57:00] you in the US or-

Wendy: [00:57:02] Actually other countries too.

RRTeam: [00:57:03] Oh, other countries?

Wendy: [00:57:04] I've had recently an email from people in Peru who are actually Venezuelan. I've had an email from somebody in Dubai who was Pakistani. Gosh, and other people in the states. I'm trying to remember. It's not me personally, but our group email. Yeah. So, they're looking for information and advice, basically. And reassurance.

RRTeam: [00:57:33] Hm. Right.

Grace: [00:57:34] We can't give advice. But we can put the information.

Wendy: [00:57:38] Well advice yeah. It's not advising people, but if they have an intention to cross, then we can tell them how to get there. How to get to Plattsburgh or what happens at the border. But that information, a lot of that, is already on our website.

RRTeam: [00:57:58] Yeah. [00:58:00] Has the organization itself had any pushback? You say generally crossing the border has been more or less okay. But have you had people sort of trying to find out, from the Canadian government, trying to find out a bit more about the organization itself, that you're aware of?

Grace: [00:58:17] Not that we're aware of.

Pascale: [00:58:17] We have the RCMP very often on the road. But it's normal, I think.

RRTeam: [00:58:22] Yeah, because of the proximity to the border more. Nothing more then?

Wendy: [00:58:31] Well we're not aware... because we're so transparent about what we do, it's like we have nothing to hide. […] I don't know. No, there's been no overt pushback. And we've had very little hate mail.

RRTeam: [00:58:49] Oh wow, okay.

Wendy: [00:58:50] Just, I'm surprised at how little hate mail we have. I think we've had two or three, which I'm constantly expecting... [00:59:00] I noticed with the op-ed that was published in the Gazette, that most of the commentary was negative. But that's because those people tend to want to comment, unfortunately.

Grace: [00:59:18] And it had positive comments too.

Wendy: [00:59:20] No, just one. Oh privately, I had yes. But I guess in the beginning, I was fully anticipating that we would start to become a target, and we haven't so far.

Grace: [00:59:35] Well, we kind of... the interesting thing with the Roxham Road demonstrations was that if you go to the Facebook pages of La Meute and Storm Alliance, you see them commenting. And they called us the old hippies on the farm.

Pascale: [00:59:54] The what?

Grace: [00:59:55] The old hippies. [01:00:00] Because when we had our tea party, we had John Lennon playing. Imagine. And it was so funny because the... was it La Meute or Storm Alliance, that put out videos. There were videos from people participating. And at first, they're kind of chuckling along and then they realized, that's the music on the other side. That's the old hippies. And then there was some comment about... and then we had our placards up.

Wendy: [01:00:38] Oh that was funny.

Grace: [01:00:41] Yeah, that was funny. Anyway, you will see those on the website. And then, they start commenting about the placards. And all of a sudden, it turns around and we're the baddies of course.

Wendy: [01:00:53] It's pretty mild though, compared to-

Grace: [01:00:55] Yes. Their main target is [crosstalk] [01:01:00] always SAB and Antifa. Because that's the group with which they... and what was interesting about the tea party thing. The [J] demonstration, was that we were very clear that we weren't wanting to be kind of oppositional with them. We were just wanting to a be a presence that was peaceful. And just putting our point of view across. And they were positively, at some point, they came towards the fence and they were trying to engage in argument with us. And we just wouldn't respond. And at some point, one of the police officers came and said, "Just go away from the fence. And just be quiet." And I said, "We're not engaging with them in any way; they'll get bored with us." And so [01:02:00] basically that's what happened. They were there for a while, and then they realized, they couldn't do their usual stuff, which they do with Antifa and SAB.

And then they just kind of went off again. It was very interesting how they just couldn't... because the only way they know how to engage is by very kind of argumentative... and that just didn't work with us. So, they kind of just left again.

RRTeam: [01:02:35] Good strategy. Do you know if either of those groups has a local chapter?

Grace: [01:02:40] No. They have to bus people in.

RRTeam: [01:02:40] Do you know where they were coming from?

Pascale: [01:02:46] Montreal. Quebec City.

Wendy: [01:02:49] But it's not only those two groups. There's many, many small far right groups in Quebec. And now they're calling for a demonstration on August 24th.

Pascale: [01:02:59] Okay, [01:03:00] when? Where?

Wendy: [01:03:03] Well-

Grace: [01:03:03] Lacolle probably. They haven't decided yet.

Wendy: [01:03:06] They haven't decided, but it's really one of the... oh god. What are they called? I can't remember now. It's one of the smaller groups. And I can send you, because we have to figure out what... but we're kind of hoping that maybe nothing much will happen. But there are many small groups [crosstalk].

Grace: [01:03:33] They haven't been able to mobilize people very much.

Wendy: [01:03:35] Not since, well as I said, the last demonstration was 14 months ago.

Pascale: [01:03:45] It was because there was so much things in the press. So, it was very very obvious all over the place in Quebec. That actually they don't speak about, they don't talk [01:04:00] about immigrants so much. So, I think these kind of people, very often, they are present when there is a lot of noise about it. And it's just... but they don't... and I know this, because in Europe, it's the same kind of thing. Far right movements, they want to make a lot of noise. But if it is noticed, they are not very engaged people. They are very fast. They just. You know? It doesn't last a lot. It's something that they react, and then it just collapses. So, I think because actually there is not so much things happening in the press, they are not very motivated.

Grace: [01:04:53] But you know what's interesting? If you go to the writeup of that event on [01:05:00] Facebook, it's the exact same thing. It's like hundreds of people are crossing every day. And it's like, we have to speak out against this.

Pascale: [01:05:10] Yes, but the press is not telling this.

Grace: [01:05:13] How did they get this idea that hundreds of people are crossing? It's not true.

Wendy: [01:05:18] It's just false information.

Grace: [01:05:19] It's just false information. But that's the discourse. And I guess you're right in that it's not in the press in the same way so-

Pascale: [01:05:28] No it’s not in the press. They are a reaction of something very often. They react to things. They want to show off. And then if there is nobody who is listening to them, they just, pfff. Because in fact, they don't care. It's more like a violent answer to something. And their rage, and something not really... it's not-

Grace: [01:05:47] Yeah, it's a way to express their anger, maybe isn't it?

Pascale: [01:05:49] Yeah, that's all. And frustration and all these things, it’s not really political.

Grace: [01:05:56] Which is why if you don't engage with them, [01:06:00] at that level, it just dissipates.

Pascale: [01:06:08] They can be dangerous too.

RRTeam: [01:06:11] In your engagement, when you speak to people either at the demonstrations or with your neighbours, with other people in the community, when you're talking about borders. And about either the necessity or the existence of borders, how do you, what's the sense that you get from people about how they feel about borders? And how they think about borders?

Pascale: [01:06:40] For me, what I heard from my nice neighbourhood. They think it's really important. And there was even people talking about a wall, a wall, in Canada. I thought really, okay. [01:07:00] So, it's not logical. It's really like a complete phantasme. But yes, they think like this. Some are really thinking like this. But you can see, it's not logical. So, it's not something with... it's not articulated. It's just ideas. But yeah, people, what I heard. Hm. Not really nice. But it's just my neighbourhood. I think I'm not in the right...

Grace: [01:07:30] Because we're so new, we're really not talking much to our neighbours. We don't have much of a relationship to our neighbours.

Pascale: [01:07:46] Yeah, there is also a lot of people who are not like this. We know in Havelock, we have a lot of people who are a lot more open and more clever and educated. And so, there are [01:08:00] different people in this place. Really people from there and not educated at all. People from there are very educated. People from Montreal coming through. It's a very diverse community. So, it's why I say actually what I heard from my place. But I know that I know a lot of people on Covey Hill and they are really not like that at all. So, it's...

Wendy: [01:08:27] Well I know that some people in the community are a bit wary about what we do, either because they don't agree with it, which is their right to disagree of course.

Pascale: [01:08:44] Do you have names? [laughs]

Wendy: [01:08:47] [crosstalk] but... And I think about borders. Our [01:09:00] name, I do feel a bit ambivalent about our name. It was a name that we kind of adopted because [L] , one of our members, had made this wooden cut-out. This is actually the basis of our, so on. And we just sort of took the name. We didn't really think about it. The notion for us is I can't speak, we don't have a position about borders. But the idea is that we want to... borders are a place where we can actually be welcoming to people in need. It's not about destroying borders. That's not the purpose of our group. We're not, although I'm sure there are individuals in our group who are not in favour of borders and some who are. We've never really had that discussion. But I think our name lends itself to people thinking that we're opposed to borders, which I think is an issue. [01:10:00] In English. In French, Créons des ponts doesn't, is more neutral.

Grace: [01:10:05] [] And that's probably more our position.

Wendy: [01:10:09] Yes. Yeah.

Grace: [01:10:09] Ultimately.

Wendy: [01:10:09] Yeah, let's be open and let's be welcoming. Rather than, yeah. I think for most people in the world, except for people who are forcibly displaced. Or who have thought about it, or who have political views about borders, most people take borders for granted. That they are part of human reality and social reality. And that nations are separate and that we should have borders. I doubt that there are really very many people that question that.

Pascale: [01:10:45] In Europe there is no more borders.

Wendy: [01:10:47] Okay. That's true. That is true.

Pascale: [01:10:50] At the beginning, I think people were very afraid of it. But now they are used to it and it's just normal. Wendy: [01:10:55] Yeah, that is true. That's a good point-

Grace: [01:10:57] But there are borders around Fortress Europe.

Pascale: [01:10:57] Yeah, but [01:11:00] they are very different countries. And you are going from one country to another and it's okay. And the specificity it is still there. So, they know it doesn't.

Grace: [01:11:16] But no. It's funny because we're both from Europe right. And I grew up with that. Borders are just kind of, not very meaningful.

Wendy: [01:11:29] But they are because they're still structures that exist that-

Grace: [01:11:34] They're political structures yes.

Wendy: [01:11:35] Yes, yeah. This is getting maybe a bit philosophical.

RRTeam: [01:11:39] It's great. It's great. I'm curious about that.

Grace: [01:11:43] Well, if you're curious, I grew up thinking of myself as a citizen of the world. I never felt comfortable with my German nationality. So, I, it didn't make sense to me, [01:12:00] to define myself like that. And I don't know, why I had this idea, but I always had this idea that I was a citizen of the world. And I still feel like that, essentially. And I think my position would be that practically speaking it's unrealistic to abolish borders at this point. But ideally, I'd want to abolish all of them. But, yeah. That's...

RRTeam: [01:12:38] Do you think that's part of what brought you to this work?

Grace: [01:12:49] No, that's an interesting question. I think it was more just kind of feeling that there was this issue about people coming across at Roxham. And [01:13:00] I never had any big reflections on it. It just seemed an obvious thing to get involved in. And for me, it wasn't so much about borders. It was more about welcoming refugees really. Yeah. Wendy: [01:13:14] Just now what occurred to me is that growing up Canadian in Canada, I would say I was always very glad there was a border with the United States because the United States is such an overwhelming presence. So, I do think that is a particular Canadian perspective. I mean I can't speak for all Canadians.

Grace: [01:13:43] Maybe we want to build a wall. [laughs]

Wendy: [01:13:48] That we grew up wanting to differentiate ourselves. That we grew up wanting to differentiate ourselves from the Americans. And I think that [01:14:00] does give a slightly different perspective. And certainly now, I'm very grateful that there's a border. Although of course, that's totally hypothetical-

Pascale: [01:14:10] I don't think-

Wendy: [01:14:11] No, no.

Pascale: [01:14:15] Borders are for some kinds of people and not for others.

Wendy: [01:14:30] Yeah, yeah. But yeah. It's a big question.

Pascale: [01:14:32] For me, borders, no way. It's really something I think. It defends some interests and that's all. Just the way I see this place is we are moving, you know. And countries are changing, borders are changing. And suddenly we think it's normal. But sometimes we think it's not normal. So, it's something really that we people and government and economical issues are putting ahead. But it's not logical at all. There is no reason, no natural reason. It's just something that is useful for economical reasons and to constrain people in some way. [01:15:00] But for me, borders is not good for humanity.

Wendy: [01:15:34] I would agree with that. I think at heart, I do agree with that. I was only reflecting-

Pascale: [01:15:41] Yeah. I understand-

Wendy: [01:15:42] This position as a Canadian, which I never really thought about that too much. But I think what we are going to be faced with in the future inevitably is such massive movements of people. I think that that will happen. It's [01:16:00] already happening. But it will be even bigger, that the notion of borders will become like... very very difficult to maintain at some point in the future. I don't know- Pascale: [01:16:14] Yeah. But it's also useful for wars, borders.

Grace: [01:16:18] Yeah.

Pascale: [01:16:18] So it's something, either there's a border. There can be war. And war is a way. Is a very strong way of directing people in their mind too. So, I think, I don't know, but I think for me, it's why I'm interested in immigration. Because I think immigration is really the base of understanding what is humanity and how we understand the world. If we are not able to welcome people because they are from another country, I think we are not able to [01:17:00] manage what is happening actually in environment issues, other things. I think it's all linked. If we don't have this capacity of seeing globally human people, we can't fight against climate changing and other things. For me, it's the base. So, I think it's the reason why I'm more engaged in this kind of.

Grace: [01:17:32] Yeah.

RRTeam: [01:17:33] Wendy, in your piece in the Gazette, you mentioned that part of your work is as a Canadian but also in sort of recognition of how other people who have arrived in Canada, their migration experiences too. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?

Wendy: [01:17:56] I can't remember what I said. I was so-

RRTeam: [01:17:59] That you [01:18:00] think about your ancestors-

Wendy: [01:18:03] Oh right, right, right. The ancestors, yeah. Well, the piece was cut so much that I'm trying to remember what was in there. It was like a process of attrition. It was like... Well yeah, it's interesting. In my original piece, I talked about how when I was growing up, my parents met in the war in London. My mother was in the British air force, women's air force. And my father was in the Canadian army. And that's where they met. And both my parents, but particularly my mother, told me a lot about what it was like in London during the war. And the Blitz and everything. And I was quite fascinated by that. And when I first visited Britain and I went to London, one of the first things I did was to go and look at the Underground where I knew people used to sleep during the Blitz.

And later when I lived there and [01:19:00] you would see these cemeteries. And you would see all these people. And particularly, I lived in the east end. The people who had been killed in the bombings were there. It was very obvious. And you saw all the places where there had been mass destruction, and all these ugly post-war buildings had been constructed in London. And it made a big impact on me. And so, at some level subliminally, it's almost like I felt like that experience informed me when I started to work with refugee children in the early ‘90s. That somehow it was a resonance for me, that my family and my ancestors had gone through this. And there was a resonance for me with what people were going through in present time. But it was all very subliminal. You don't really think about it, but it does, it does impact you.

Pascale: [01:19:58] Of course.

Wendy: [01:20:00] And when I visited Germany, at some point, Grace's mother who lives there, her parents live in the Black Forest. And I always remember walking in the town. And her mother pointed to a hill just outside the town. And she told me that that hill had been constructed with all of the buildings that had been bombed during the war. And that really struck me too. Just the level of destruction. It was just so unbelievable. I don't know why I'm going there. But I guess that's, yeah.

Grace: [01:20:40] Well, I grew up with that too.

Pascale: [01:20:40] No, but in Europe, you grew up with the war. The reminiscence of war. Our parents, they were like, I don't know. But when I was kid, I just learned about war. And it was very strong in the families. It's true. And the population movement and all these things, it's...

Grace: [01:20:40] What's interesting to me is that growing up in Germany in the ‘60s and ‘70s, there was still, I still saw the destruction from the [01:21:00] war, because the city I grew up in, it had been bombed during the last days of the war kind of thing. And there was always a sense, even though my parents didn't talk about it, because my parents were too young to be involved in the war. My father wasn't drafted. Even though, he was basically saved from being drafted by a neighbour. He would have been drafted age 14 in 44. Yeah, can you imagine? And the neighbour just told him to [01:22:00] hide. And they weren't, at that time, they weren't capable anymore, of going after people. They were just too... no resources for that. So anyway, so he avoided being drafted, and my mother was a year younger. So, and my mother was in the country. So, what they experienced basically was, they didn't talk about it very much. In my family, there was not very much talk about the war, except for talk about how they were hungry. And they didn't have enough to eat. That was like the amount of talk that I heard about the war. And so, I didn't know very much at all until... and I didn't know about all the [01:23:00] refugees. Because after the war, all the German populations from neighbouring countries, basically lost their right to stay there and had to go back to Germany. That was one of the agreements by the Allies.

So, there was a huge movement of refugees, of Germans back to Germany from Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, all those places, Poland. And that was an issue that I was totally unaware of, until I got involved in this group. And at the same time, there was the first novel published in Germany by a woman who was a child of refugees, growing up in Germany. And, [01:24:00] being faced with the rejection by the German population. And what I found out after, was that after the war there was... even my grandparents. I never knew that my grandparents in the country. Whoever still had space, living space, had to give part of it to refugees, to refugee families. So, my grandparents had to house one refugee family in one of their bedrooms. There was so much shortage of living space, that people really resented having to give space to refugee families. And refugee families were really... they faced a lot of discrimination. [01:25:00] They spoke differently. Often, their German dialect was quite kind of ancient sounding. And it was actually a huge issue, a huge issue, that I knew nothing about. Nothing, nothing, nothing. There was totally like a silence about it.

And it's only when all this refugee theme got going that somehow, there also started to be information about I, about the German refugees, post-war. And their history. And in fact, since then, I met a woman who was a refugee in Germany and had grown up in Germany not far from where [01:26:00] I was. And she said her experience was not that bad. She didn't feel rejected. But I know a lot of people did. And they eventually immigrated to Canada. Actually, a lot of the former refugees did end up immigrating to Canada or elsewhere, because they had already been displaced. And I guess there was just an openness to moving elsewhere. So, it's interesting how that theme kind of came home in a way that I never expected it would be.

And my parents are still alive, so I go to Germany once a year. And so, it's interesting to see how that whole theme has come alive in Germany. Because of [01:27:00] novels. Because of people speaking up about it, about their experience, and yeah. It's very interesting. And these were Germans, coming back to Germany. They weren't Black, or from a different ethnicity. They were Germans, and they were rejected, and not welcome. I mean, because of a very specific situation also. There was just not, the shortage in housing was terrible after the war so that was part of it.

RRTeam: [01:27:42] Was there anything else that you wanted to put on, about the work that you do.

Wendy: [01:27:52] Well, I guess there's one thing that occurs to me, which is that with the federal election coming up, we don't know what's going to happen. And [01:28:00] my fear, and concern is that if the Conservatives win the election, that they're going to try to shut down Roxham Road. And if they do that, then it's going to be forcing people into taking dangerous routes to get here. And that's a very big concern of mine.

RRTeam: [01:28:25] And it's certainly clear that they're using it as, right? In their political messaging.

Wendy: [01:28:34] Yes. That's right.

RRTeam: [01:28:36] Despite the fact, that as you've said, the numbers have dropped significantly.

Wendy: [01:28:40] And the fact that the Liberals have done things that are more in line with what the Conservatives want.

RRTeam: [01:28:47] Yeah. They've taken their stance.

Wendy: [01:28:50] Yeah, although I haven't seen in the news anything about the re-negotiation of the STCA.

RRTeam: [01:28:59] No, [01:29:00] exactly. They were speaking about it quite a bit. “Modernizing” it or whatever term they were using. Wendy: [01:29:03] That's right. Yeah. And have you read anything of recent?

RRTeam: [01:29:07] No we haven't.

Wendy: [01:29:09] I'm wondering if it's because the Americans just aren't interested.

RRTeam: [01:29:12] Or it's just not the right time.

Wendy: [01:29:15] Yeah.

RRTeam: [01:29:16] Well, because it's certainly not in the US's interest. It's in Canada's interest to keep it working the way it works. To be able to send people back, except for, and it's also in their interest to have people crossing and to be able to criminalize them and justify certain policy changes. But, yeah.

Wendy: [01:29:36] But I mean, when I spoke with someone who is very knowledgeable, she suggested that in order for the STCA to be re-negotiated as was suggested so that it applies across the border, Canada would have to give something big in return to the States, as a quid pro quo.

Pascale: [01:29:58] Like maple [01:30:00] syrup? [laughs] Wendy: [01:30:02] That's right. Take all our maple syrup. Which is an interesting thing to think about. Because clearly, that's the way the President likes to negotiate.

RRTeam: [01:30:21] Well, and that's how the agreement came about in the first place. Right? Because it was part of the larger Smart Border Accord where Canada gave up a lot. Wendy: [01:30:30] Yeah.

RRTeam: [01:30:31] In exchange.

Grace: [01:30:33] I'd like to mention one thing. We have one member who's been here a long time in the group, [N]. And she keeps talking about, and people who have been here for a long time, they all know stories of people coming across. There's been a long, there's a long history of people coming across [01:31:00] to Canada. And of course, going the other way too. And there's this lore in the valley, as it were, the Chateauguay Valley, about people coming across. And stories about, and people basically felt quite comfortable with that. Because it was individual people. So, my sense is that Roxham Road has really changed maybe the comfort level, because there's just been a lot more people coming across. And I'm too new to really have a sense of what the opinion of people around here is.

And clearly, there is a spread of opinions also. I don't know, has that changed? But I think the comfort level [01:32:00] has definitely changed. It's one thing for people crossing one by one. It's another thing for people arriving in large numbers. I think that's really the main...

Pascale: [01:32:16] But I think it's also because for people, when they don't really see things, it's okay. And if they have to take position, it's another problem. Because when it's just one people, you don't have to give your position. It's not, and you don't have to say if it's wrong or if it's okay. But when it's a big number of people, you have to think about it first. And then to have a position. And very often they go to the simple, the easiest. Which is-

Wendy: [01:32:53] Which is what?

Pascale: [01:32:54] Which is very often, okay. They are not us, so they stay where they are. That's all.

RRTeam: [01:33:01] [01:33:00] Right.

Pascale: [01:33:01] That's it.

Wendy: [01:33:01] And in line with that, is this whole question of legality and illegality. And that is the most stubborn piece of wrong or false information that just, it's very difficult to dislodge. And I noticed, of course some of the comments on the Gazette piece were going on about that. And that's such a, the whole notion that people are... because of this notion of borders, there's this so-called common-sense idea that if you cross a border at a place other than a port of entry, you are somehow become illegal. Or you've done something illegal. And explaining to people that actually, when you [01:34:00] talk about asylum seekers, that makes no sense. Because what's the point of having the Convention, the ‘51 Convention, if people can't get to a place of safety? Sometimes that gets through to someone and they think, "Ah." They sort of kind of start to understand. But when you add to that, the STCA and trying to explain that, people start to either, I don't know, they feel maybe you're trying to pull the wool over their eyes or something. But the notion of illegality has really stuck. And I think it's that that has made this such a hot button issue. Even though the, and if only people were able to cross at a port of entry without this happening. I wonder to what extent that would undercut the whole dialogue against anti-refugee rhetoric. If people were simply entering at ports of entry.

Pascale: [01:34:59] Yeah, [01:35:00] because there is kind of separation. Of what is a border? It is a place you have to go. So yeah, I am sure. Because I talk with people about this too, and they were really like, wow yeah, it's true. It's so difficult for them to understand that there is complexity in the border, you know the notion of border. For them, you have to go there, and that's all. So, when you try to explain that, no, there is other possibilities, they begin to open, but then they re-shut. When it's too complicated, they don't. So, I think, yeah. If they could go to the frontière, like normal, it will really ease it a lot. A lot.

Wendy: [01:35:55] And the interesting thing I do, one last point is I do think about [01:36:00] borders, is that when you look at the movements of refugees in the developing world, people are crossing borders, full stop, in huge numbers. And, other countries are coping with that. Okay, not perfectly, of course not. But they are coping with, real genuine mass movements of people. Not, Roxham Road is not a mass movement of people. For heaven's sake! 20,000 people in one year. But when you look at whatever country you're talking about, whether it's Pakistan or Turkey or Uganda, wherever, Lebanon. And you think well, how do they, they're managing in some way, shape, or form. Why are we so afraid of 20,000 people in one year? [01:37:00] What is that?

RRTeam: [01:37:04] Yeah, that's a good question.

Grace: [01:37:09] I have one more thing to say.

RRTeam: [01:37:11] Yes, please.

Grace: [01:37:12] And it's something that's really striking to me, living here and having come here. Is that actually, the actual experience of people living at the border, particularly this one, has been one of total border porosity. In the sense that [B's] son used to go across to the US on his bicycle to visit his school friend. And, there was a lot of back and forth. And families have members of the family across the border. And there was a lot of movement of people-

Pascale: [01:37:57] Yeah, and you just had to sign the paper to go for the [01:38:00] border at one time.

Grace: [01:38:00] Yeah.

Pascale: [01:38:02] Yeah, I went there at one time, and that was all.

Grace: [01:38:07] Or there was like, in Roxham Road, yes. There was a house, that was like the customs house, but it was off the actual border. And they trusted people that they would come through in the house before they crossed if they had something to declare, or whatever. So, it was like totally porous. It was actually not closed at all. And there was a lot of movement back and forth. And over time, it's become more and more closed. But there is still this kind of, when you speak to people here, they're just used to back and forth. It's not at all like most people think of borders. Their actual reality, their lived experience is actually [01:39:00] quite different. And I find that quite striking.

Pascale: [01:39:07] But in 2001, it changed everything.

Wendy: [01:39:10] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.

RRTeam: [01:39:13] It was the same experience for me growing up near the Vermont border. Because I'm not even from Sherbrooke. I'm from near Ayer's Cliff, which is right or Waterville, which is Ayer's Cliff, which is near Stanstead. And we, that border is very very similar because it's countryside with a porous border. Growing up, yeah. We did not need a passport or anything to pass through for sure.

Grace: [01:39:39] And it's still like that. When we cross in Hemmingford or Havelock, it's like because you're local-

RRTeam: [01:39:49] And they know you or?

Grace: [01:39:50] They don't necessarily know you, but it's just like well, of course you'd cross. Because it's like, pfft, everybody does.

RRTeam: [01:39:59] [01:40:00] But for people who are a younger generation who haven't experienced the pre- let's say, 9/11 border, then you kind of wonder how then or the community at that time, which was more porous. You wonder then, what that will be like. Because there is no reference point of it being different, right?

Grace: [01:40:25] But there's the lore of it being different. They all grow up with that.

Pascale: [01:40:26] It's why very often, when you have older patrol at the border, they just really don't care. And young, they are more like a new way of seeing things.

RRTeam: [01:40:40] Security mentality.

Pascale: [01:40:40] Yeah, security mentality. Because they don't know. They didn't do a different thing before. Because very often, when they are over 50, they just don't care. Oh yeah, sometimes, they are just, they don't [01:41:00] even want to see your passport.

Grace: [01:41:01] Yeah, they know they have to ask these questions. But really, they can't be bothered asking.

Pascale: [01:41:07] And if they're younger, they ask you all the questions. It's so funny.

Wendy: [01:41:12] Are you bringing back firearms?

Grace: [01:41:14] Yeah.

Pascale: [01:41:20] And bananas, and...

Grace: [01:41:21] Because I'm used to going swimming every day in the summer. Because I used to have a lake up there. So now, I go to Chazy Lake, which is in the US. So, I cross at Havelock, which is my local crossing. And yeah. I just tell them, "Well, I'm going swimming to Chazy Lake," and when I come back, I have my towel across the seat. And I say, "We went to swim in Chazy Lake." Well yeah, so that's it. They never ask me about firearms.

Wendy: [01:42:00] [01:42:00] I've been asked.

Grace: [01:42:02] Have you?

Wendy: [01:42:02] Oh yeah. Why else would I be going to the States?

Grace: [01:42:07] You must be looking suspicious.

RRTeam: [01:42:08] Yes. Really.

Grace: [01:42:09] Yeah right.