Javier's transcript

Javier: Si, como de estudios, o… de estudios, solamente la primaria 6 años, porque la situación económica era muy mala, y luego pues a trabajar con mi padre. El manejaba un tractor muy pesado de cuchilla para cortar carreteras, y yo era su ayudante, de la edad de 13 años para adelante. Y de ahí no supe llevar los estudios, porque me dediqué solo a trabajar.

[0:29] Pero ya cuando se vio la situación muy peligrosa para mi familia, no solo para mi, entonces fue cuando ya tuvimos que abandonar el país, un día a las 2 de la madrugada. Porque me vigilaban día y noche, carros negros con armas pesadas así.

Yes, like about my studies, or… about studies, I only finished elementary school, 6 years, because the economic situation was so bad, and then I started to work with my father. He drove a very heavy-duty tractor with a blade to cut through highways and I was his assistant, from the age of 13 years onwards. And from then, I couldn’t continue my studies, because I dedicated myself to only work. But when the situation got really dangerous for my family, not only for me, then it was when we had to leave the country, one day at 2:00am. Because they watched over me all day and night, with black cars with machine guns.

[0:46] Pero habían dos motivos por lo que ellos me perseguían porque mi familia, la mayor parte de mi familia estaba en la guerrilla. Y los nombres de ellos, de 10 familiares míos, que desaparecieron, no aparecían ni vivos ni muertos, están en los libros de Amnistía Internacional. Para entonces ya andaba en los 40 años y fue cuando decidí venirme. Entonces yo ya estaba casado con 4 hijos, y nos venimos tres primero. Se quedaron tres en Guatemala, y nos trajimos la más pequeña.

But there were two reasons that they persecuted me, because my family, most of my family was in the guerrilla. And the names of 10 of my family members, that were disappeared, that did not appear neither alive nor dead, are listed in the books of Amnesty International. By then I was around 40 years old and that is when I decided to come. I was married with four children, and three of us came first. Three stayed in Guatemala, and we brought the youngest with us.

Interpreter: Tres se quedaron, y una se trajó.

Three stayed, and one I brought with me.

Javier: Hasta Tijuana. La mamá, la hija pequeña de 7 años, y yo. Y luego ahí, ya se dio contacto con el movimiento santuario. Yo me quedé en Tijuana y ella se regresó sola a traer los otros tres hijos. Y ya santuario se encargaron que ellos se entraron por Nogales, Sonora, y yo entre… no, ellos entraron por Texas. Ellos entraron los cuatro por Texas, y yo crucé con la niña por Nogales, Sonora.

To Tijuana. The mom, the youngest daughter who was seven years old, and I crossed at Nogales, Sonora. And then there, we connected with the Sanctuary Movement. I stayed in Tijuana and she went back alone to bring the other three children. And then the Sanctuary Movement ensured that they entered through Nogales, Sonora, and I entered… no, they entered through Texas. The four of them entered through Texas, and I crossed with the girl through Nogales, Sonora.

Esto es dando una idea pues de mis 13 años a los 40, cuando salí, breve.

That’s giving you a very brief idea of what happened from when I was 13 years old to my 40th, when I left.

[2:02] Mi sobrinita, mi sobrina de segundo grado, de 16 y 17 años en Cuba estudiando con la guerrilla. Y mis primas, las hijas del hermano de mi papá, también se fueron a estudiar a Cuba. Y mis primos y mis sobrinos que estaban en la guerrilla, en las fuerzas armadas rebeldes, mi papá tenía un negocio de cantina, venta de licor, y en las noches ellos llegaban como visitantes. Si, los guerrilleros. Si, mis sobrinos y mis primos, y mis tíos también llegaban. Como era un negocio público, ellos podían ocupar una mesa y decir que era visita familiar. [cross talk] Si. Cuatro se fueron a Cuba…Pero jovencitas.

My little niece, my great-niece, who were 16 and 17 studying in Cuba with the guerrilla. And my cousins, the daughters of my dad’s brother also went to study in Cuba. And my cousins and my nephews that were in the guerrilla, in the rebel armed forces, my dad has a bar business, liquor sales, and in the nights they would arrive like visitors. Yes, the guerrilleros. Yes, my nephews and my cousins, and my uncles also arrived. Since it was a public business, they could sit at a table and say it was a family visit. [cross talk] Yes, four went to Cuba…they were very young.

[2:55] Pero lo que sucedió después cuando ya regresaron de Cuba no cayeron en enfrentamiento contra el ejército de Guatemala, pero los desaparecieron. Los desaparecieron. Ell ejército, la judicial, ejército y policía nacional se encargaban de capturar.

Y mis tías fabricaban mandiles, delantales decíamos nosotros, pero era nomas para despistar al gobierno, y se iban a venderlos al mercado central de Guatemala. Pero cuando ellas salieron con los delantales también se llevaron a mis tres tías, dos tías y una prima. A las tres.

But what happened afterwards when they arrived from Cuba, they did not get into a conflict with the Guatemalan army, but they were disappeared. They disappeared them. The army, the investigative police, the army and national police were in charge of capturing them.

And my aunts made aprons as we call them, but that was only to throw off the government. They would go sell them at the central market in Guatemala City. But, when they went to sell the aprons, they also took my three aunts, two aunts and one female cousin. They disappeared the three of them.

Interpreter: [3:32] Ellas desaparecieron también?

They disappeared too?

Javier: Mi prima y dos tías, hermanas de mi papá. Y nunca aparecieron ni muertas ni vivas. En total fueron 40 familiares que nos desaparecieron.

Es que a 15 minutos de la cantina de mi papá tenían la bodega llena de armas pesadas que servían para la guerrilla. Mi primo Moisés y dos de sus hijos. [3:59] Y llegó el día que los agarraron desprevenidos, les metieron helicópteros, hasta tanques del ejército, judicial nacional, ejército, los rodearon, los capturaron a los tres, y no aparecieron tampoco. Y se apoderaron de la casa, de las armas, y se las llevaron.

My female cousin and two aunts, my dad’s sisters. And they never reappeared, neither dead nor alive. In total it was 40 family members that were disappeared.

It’s because 15 minutes from my dad’s bar, my cousin Moises and two of his sons had a warehouse full of guns that were used by the guerrilla. And the day came that they caught them unawares. They put them in helicopters, and came with army tanks, national investigative police, army, and surrounded them, they captured all three, and they never appeared either. They took possession of the house, the guns, and took them away.

[4:18] Deja que voy a recordar. 32 o 35, no recuerdo. No he podido recordar exacto. Ellos me decían que me uniera a la guerrilla, pero yo les dijé, tengo 4 hijos. Mis primos y mis tíos. Pero por el apellido, ya nos perseguían a todos. Y por otro lado, no me estoy saliendo del tema. [4:47] Por otro lado, estaba yo con otros amigos organizando un sindicato de electricistas.

Pero, era sindicato de electricistas que no trabajaban con la empresa eléctrica, sino que independiente. Y entonces a mi amigo Timoteo lo capturaron una noche y lo mataron como a dos cuadras de su casa.

Let me try to remember, 32 or 35, I don’t remember. I haven’t been able to remember exactly. My cousins and my uncles told me to join the guerrilla, but I told them, I have 4 children. But due to the same last name, they persecuted us all. And on the other hand, I’m not going off topic. On the other hand, I was organizing an electrical workers union with some friends.

But, it was a union of electrical workers that did not work with the electric company, but rather independently. And so they captured my friend Timoteo one night and they killed him about two blocks from my house.

Interpreter (in English): And they killed him, two blocks away from his house

Javier: Y a mi solo me dejaron una nota que decía, tu eres el siguiente. They just left me a note that said, you are next.

[5:15] Nunca se identifican, personas desconocidas. Pues, el carro llevaba, el carro negro con cinco personas llegaban diferentes personas cada noche. Nunca se identifican. Ellos si tienen el nombre y fotos de uno y todo…Tienen toda la información.

They never identified themselves, unknown people. Well, the car, the black car, had five people in it, different people would arrive every night. They never identified themselves. They did however have our names and photos. They had all the information.

Interpreter: [5:33] Si ustedes se habían hecho este sindicato, quien es que iba a beneficiar de eso?

Who was going to benefit from this union?

Javier: Los trabajadores, todos los que trabajamos en electricidad. Nos íbamos a beneficiar porque ya tenían acceso a un salario mayor. Ellos, ellos combaten a los sindicatos, allá es prohibido en Guatemala. Los que combaten quienes se quieren organizar como sindicalistas, es el ejército, la policía nacional, y la judicial. Y para no permitir que se organicen, los matan, para que les entre miedo a los demás.

The workers, all of us who work in electricity, we would have benefited because we would have had access to a higher salary. They fight against the unions, as they’re illegal in Guatemala. Those who fight against those who want to organize as union members are the army, the national police, and the investigative police. And to stop them from organizing, they kill them, so as to instil fear in others. Interpreter: [6:22] En sus propias palabras, ¿porque usted quería hacer sindicato?

Can you tell us in your words why you wanted to unionize? Javier: Para que, para trabajar por mejor sueldo. Porque allá lo explotan a uno. Si uno es electricista independiente, no le quieren pagar bien. … Todavía se empezaba a trabajar por un salario mínimo, justo. Ya, la explotación bajaba, organizando un sindicato, pero es combatido. Son como enemigos del gobierno, los que quieren organizar un sindicato. Porque el gobierno es para los ricos, no para los pobres.

For what, to work for a better wage. Because over there they exploit you. If you are an independent electrician, they don’t want to pay you well. … We were just starting to work towards a minimum wage, a just one. The exploitation would lessen, organizing a union, but it is fought against. They are like enemies of the government, those who want to organize a union, because the government is for the rich, not for the poor.

Interpreter: [7:18] Y en qué formas usted vio que los trabajadores estaban sido explotados? What were some of the ways that workers were exploited?

Javier: Porque todos trabajábamos por salario bajo. Era en aquel tiempo – allá se gana muy poco – el que bien ganaba eran nueve quetzales el día. Como $1.50. Pero ya organizados subía a $18 y $20. Por eso muchos nos aventábamos a organizar el sindicato, para tener derechos.

Because we all work for a low wage. In that time – we earn very little over there – whoever earned well earned 9 quetzales a day. Like $1.50. But if we were organized it went up to $18 and $20. That is so many of us threw ourselves into organizing the union, to have rights.

Interpreter: [7:46] So, your union activities were seen as political by the police and by the government?

Javier: Si, si, así es. Si, como revolucionario, porque no estaban conforme con ganar lo que ellos querían pagarle.

Yes, yes, it’s like that. Yes, as revolutionary, because they were not satisfied with earning what they wanted to pay them.

Interpreter: [8:02] Can you tell us a bit more about the other side of your work and your family’s work, which was with the guerrillas?

Javier: [8:11] Es que con los muchachos de la guerrilla, de las FAR [Fuerzas Armadas Rebeldes], llegaban de sorpresa. No avisaban porque no les convenía, y nos reuníamos en la cantina de mi papa. Y yo trabajaba aparte en la electricidad. Y entonces, y la familia vivía en la misma casa. Todos, mis dos hermanos, y yo y mi familia. Mis primos eran comandantes de la guerrilla, de los que dirigían las tropas. Y si los miraban en la calle, muchas veces pasaron con un manojo de escobas y trapeadores en la espalda. “Le damos escobas, escobas.”

Porque adentro de los manojos de escobas, llevaban las armas, los cuernos de chivo. Entonces pasaban así, frente a la cantina, y subían para San Francisco No. 2 allá en donde estaban almacenando las armas. Porque a ese lugar llegaba mi primo Salomón, el comandante Salomón llegaba con una troca a recoger las armas que ahí juntaban. … A él si no lo agarraron nunca.

It’s that the guys from the guerrilla, from the FAR [Rebel Armed Forces], would arrive by surprise. They would not announce their visits as that wasn’t in their best interest, and we would meet in my dad’s bar. And apart from that, I worked in electricity. So, the family lived in the same house. All of us, my two brothers, and me and my family. My cousins were commanders in the guerrilla, those who directed the troops. If you saw them in the streets, many times you would see them passing with a bunch of brooms and mops on their backs. “We’re selling brooms, brooms.”

Because inside the bunches of brooms, they had the guns, the AK-47s. That’s how they passed by, in front of the bar, and would go up to San Francisco No. 2 where they would warehouse the guns. Because that is where my cousin Salomon would come, the Commander Salomon would arrive with a truck to pick up the arms that they would gather there. ... They never captured him.

Interpreter: [9:19] What were they fighting for?

Javier: Porque había una cosa como Venezuela, que hubo una especia de gobierno como Venezuela. Entonces la idea era derrotar el gobierno para poder, para ponerse ellos en el poder. Pero nunca se logró derrotar al ejercito. Ahora, hoy en día, lo que se volvió es un partido político. Así se llama, Fuerzas Armadas Rebeldes Partido Político. ... Y participan en las elecciones presidenciales.

Because there was something like Venezuela, there was a type of government like in Venezuela. So, the idea was to overthrow the government to be able to put themselves in power. But they were never able to overthrow the army. Now, today, what they have turned into is a political party. That’s how they’re called, the Rebel Armed Forces Political Party. And they participate in the presidential elections.

Interpreter: [10:04] And how would you describe the government at that time?

Javier: El gobierno se cambiaba. Las elecciones eran fingidas. Ya el próximo presidente, ya todos sabían quien iba a ser, porque el que estaba sentado de presidente lo iba a poner, al amigo. Si, era solo como un teatro. Y paso… eso fue lo que duró, 40 años, la guerra en Guatemala igual que en tu país. Solo había cambios de personas en el gobierno, nunca habían elecciones reales. ... Y el presidente, era presidente para los ricos, no para los pobres.

The government would change itself. The elections were rigged. Everyone knew who the next President would be, because whoever was the current President would put his friend in power. Yes, it was only like theatre. And that’s what happened… that is what lasted for 40 years, the war in Guatemala the same as in your country. There were only changes of people in the government, and never real elections. … And the President, the President was one for the rich, not for the poor.

Interpreter: [10:50] And what happened that made you decide to leave Guatemala?

Javier: Ya había perdido mis sobrinos, mis primos, mis tías, mis primas. Ya desaparecieron los 40. Y a mi ya mas cortito, noche, noche, noche a noche…. Entonces dijimos vamos a juntar un poco de dinero y nos vamos para el Norte antes que me maten también.

I had already lost my nephews, my male cousins, my aunts, my female cousins. They had already disappeared 40 of them. And for me, it was getting closer, night after night after night after night… So, we said, let’s get together some money and let’s go to the North before they kill me too.

Interpreter: How did you plan to flee Guatemala?

Javier: [11:31] Yo intenté dos veces cruzar México para llegar a Estados Unidos, pero solo. Y solo llegué al Distrito Federal y me regresé. Y a la tercera vez dijimos, la tercera vez es la vencida, vámonos, antes de que te maten. Nomás tres [mi esposa, mi hija, y yo], y se quedaron tres.

I had tried to cross Mexico to arrive in the United States twice, but alone. I only made it to the Federal District [Mexico City] and I returned. And on the third try we said, the third time is a charm, let’s go, before they kill you. Only three [my wife, my daughter, and I], and three stayed behind.

Interpreter: [12:01] What it was like to leave Guatemala for the third time? Javier: Ya resuelto y decidido a cruzarme, decimos ahora o nunca…En La Bestia nos venimos…Ahí viajamos. De Río Suchiate que es en la frontera de Guatemala, para Tijuana, hicimos 20 días. Porque había que esperar 4-6 horas el tren que saliera, que siguiera para el Norte. 20 días. Y nos bajábamos solo para pedir comida en los ranchos. Los mexicanos nos regalaban.

I had already resolved and decided to cross, we said now or never…We came on The Beast…That’s where we travelled. From Suchiate River that is on the Guatemalan border, to Tijuana, it took 20 days, because we had to wait 4-6 hours for the train to leave, that would continue to the North. 20 days. And we would get down only to ask for food on the farms. The Mexicans would give it to us.

Interpreter: [12:42] From Guatemala City through Mexico, can you just tell, walk us through how you got from your home in Guatemala City to, sort of, into Mexico, through the Suchiate River?

Javier: De la ciudad? Corren los buses, toda la noche, corren buses extraurbanos, que le llaman. Si, y entonces, lo tomamos ahí en el Puente del Trébol de la Zona 12, ahí está una parada del bus y ahí nos subimos. No, ahí subimos el bus para el Suchiate. Cuando cruzamos el Suchiate fue cuando ya nos subimos a La Bestia.

From the city? The buses run all night, extra-urban buses as they’re called, run all night. Yes, and so, we took one from there at the Trebol Bridge of Zone 12. There is a bus stop there and there we got on. No, there we got on the bus for the Suchiate. When we crossed the Suchiate, that’s when we got on The Beast.

Llegó mi sobrino. El se encargaba de traer gente de Guatemala para Tijuana, y nunca lo agarraban. Era mi sobrino, Eddie. Si, con el veníamos. Entonces él nos dijo vamos, no vamos a pasar el río, nos vamos a cruzar por aquí, por un bosque, y fuimos a salir a unos zacatales y ahí ya había carretera para carros. Pero nos dijo mi sobrino, no se detengan, sigamos porque hay esta la estación del tren donde vamos a subir. Si, así fue. De la ciudad de Guatemala, cinco horas para la frontera de México.

My nephew came. He would bring people from Guatemala to Tijuana, and they never caught him. He was my nephew, Eddie. Yes, we came with him. So, he would say to us, let’s go, we’re not going to pass the river, we’re going to cross here, through a forest, and we came out through some grasslands and there was a highway. But my nephew said to us, don’t stop, let’s continue because there is the train station where we will board. Yes, that’s how it went. From Guatemala City, it was five hours to the Mexican border.

[13:54] 20 días, solo México, ahí si fueron 20. Salimos el 20 de octubre de 1988. 20 de octubre de 1988. Y llegamos el 10 de noviembre a Tijuana, del mismo año.

20 days, only Mexico, it was 20 there. We left 20 October 1988. 20 October 1988. And we arrived 10 November of the same year to Tijuana.

[14:18] En Tijuana, mi sobrino dijo, Tijuana querían, Tijuana tienen. Yo ya me regreso a Guatemala. Porque el todavía nos fue a dejar a la casa de refugio, Centro Scalabrini. Existe todavía.

In Tijuana, my nephew said, you wanted Tijuana, you got Tijuana. I’m going to return to Guatemala. Because he still was able to leave us at a shelter, the Scalabrini Centre. It still exists.

Ahí fue donde fui a conocer Víctor Clark, el director binacional de derechos humanos de Tijuana y San Diego. Fue un Salvadoreño que me dijo, mira aquel señor de lentes, está allá, me dijo. Habla con él, te puede ayudar. Era miembro del movimiento santuario. Y el Salvadoreño me dijo, yo esta noche me voy, pero háblale ya de una vez, me dijo. Y él sacó una tarjeta y me dijo a las 10 de la mañana te espero mañana. Entonces yo me salí del trabajo, porque ya tenía trabajo. Víctor Clark [me dijo] a las 10 de la mañana te espero, aquí está mi tarjeta. Yo le pedí permiso a mi patrón y fui a la cita que él me dijo.

That’s where I got to know Victor Clark, the binational director of human rights of Tijuana and San Diego. It was a Salvadorean that said to me, look at that man with glasses, he’s there, he said to me. Go talk to him, he can help you. He was a member of the Sanctuary Movement. And the Salvadorean said to me, I am going this night, but go talk to him right away, he says to me. He took out a card and he says, at 10 in the morning, I’ll be waiting for you tomorrow. So, I left work, because I already had work. Victor Clark told me I’ll wait for you at 10 in the morning, here’s my card. I asked permission to my boss and I went to the appointment that he made with me.

Interviewer: Where were you working at the time?

Javier: Estaba trabajando en un taller de aparatos electrodomésticos, usados, reparando. Jesús González Rosas, se llamaba el patrón. En Tijuana.

I was working at a used domestic electronic appliance workshop, repairing them. My boss was named Jesus Gonzalez Rosas. In Tijuana.

Interviewer: [15:34] What happened when you met, when you had that meeting and appointment with Victor Clark?

Javier: Solo con él. El se puso a escribirlo todo, todo. Y me dijo quiero que seas real, toda la verdad, me dijo. Eso es confidencial, nadie más se va a enterrar, solo los del movimiento santuario. Entonces me dio confianza, y con libertad le conté todo. De ahí mismo, llamó para San Diego y dijo, tengo un caso especial. Voy mañana para San Diego. Entonces ellos dijeron, él les dio un poco de lo que había escrito y le contestaron de San Diego, “no, no vienes tú para acá. Nosotros vamos para allá. Vamos a llegar tres personas.” Y hay hicieron segunda cita.

Only with him. He started to write everything, everything. And he told me, I want you to be real, to tell me all of the truth, he says to me. This is confidential, no one else will know, only those from the Sanctuary Movement. So he inspired confidence in me and I freely told him everything. From there, he called San Diego and said, I have a special case. I’ll go to San Diego tomorrow. So they said to him, he gave them a bit of what he had written, and they responded to him, “no, don’t come here. We will go there. Three of us will come.” And then they made a second appointment.

[16:32] Y a los tres que llegaron de San Diego, también les tuve que contar casi todo. Entonces ahí ellos organizaron, me dijeron, a tu esposa le vamos a dar dinero para que vaya a traer sus otros tres hijos. Y tú te vas para Nogales a la Iglesia Católica, ahí está un centro, otro centro. Y yo andaba llevando a la niña, yo andaba llevando a la niña de 7 años. Y a la niña la pasaron en medio de quince niñas, iban con sombreritos de fiesta, que venían, imaginariamente de un, de celebrar un cumpleaños. Y a ella la pusieron en medio. Si, un gorrito de fiesta. Como ya tenia 7 años, le dijeron, cuando paren el carro y miras a la persona uniformada que nos va a parar, tu no dejas de hablar, haz como que estas hablando inglés, haz como que estas hablando inglés le dijeron y habla con los niños ahí, luego todos tienen que estar echando relajo. Y la pasaron en frente de la caseta de inmigración.

And to the three that arrived from San Diego, I also had to tell almost everything. So, they organized it all there. They said to me, we’re going to give your wife money so that she can go get your other three children. And you will go to Nogales to the Catholic Church. There is another centre, another centre. And I was taking my girl, I took the 7 year-old girl. They passed my girl among fifteen girls who all had party hats on, as though they were coming from celebrating an imaginary birthday party. And they put her in the middle. Yes, a party hat. Since she was already 7 years old, they told her, when they stop the car and you see the uniformed person that is going to stop us, don’t stop talking. Pretend as though you are speaking English and speak to the other kids there, as though you’re all having lots of fun and clowning around. And they passed her in front of the Immigration gate.

[17:42] Y luego a mi, ya llegaron dos pastores, uno de la iglesia bautista, metodista y bautista, eran los dos pastores que llegaron. Uno estaba bien viejito y el otro estaba joven todavía. Y me dijeron, y si sale alguna gente de inmigración americano, le dices que tú, que nosotros estudiamos las especias de pájaros y tú nos estás enseñando en donde se encuentran. Ya le dio risa.

Llevaba un libro de pájaros, y una camera. Pero la camera era para controlar los agentes de inmigración americanos. Y pasamos caminando por una hondonada así, pasamos caminando, había nieve todavía. Y pasamos caminando. Si, nieve. En el barranco, en donde íbamos caminando los tres. Y entonces le dijo yo al pastor, mira, mira Pedro, allá se mira algo en algún cerro, déjame ver que es. Ah, es una vaca, no hay problema. No, una vaca. No, la nieve estaba en el piso. Y luego, el cerco que pasamos era de tres hilos de alambre de púas – pues así lo pasamos, y ya me recibieron dos personas, una jovencita, y una ancianita, pasaba de ochenta y cinco años. De tres hilos. De este altura. En Nogales antes, pero estaba a lado 28 años atrás.

And then with me, two pastors came, one from the Baptist church, Methodist and Baptist, those were the two pastors that came. One of them was very old and the other one was still young. And they said to me, if someone from US Immigration stops us, you tell them that you, that we are studying bird species and that you are showing us where they are located. This made you laugh.

I had a guidebook about birds, and a camera. But the camera was to monitor the American immigration agents. And we walked past a hollow like that, we passed by walking, there was still snow. We passed by walking. Yes, snow, on the gully that the three of us were walking along. And so I say to the pastor, look, look Pedro, I see something there on that hill, let me see what it is. Oh, it’s a cow, there’s no problem. No, a cow. No, the snow was on the ground. And then, the fence that we passed was three strands of barbed wire – well, even that we passed over, and then two people received me, a young woman and an older woman, of more than eighty five years. Of three strands. It was this high. [gesturing the height]. It was before Nogales, but I had been next to there 28 years prior.

[19:14] Y me dijeron, si miras un carro, mayormente si dice inmigración americana, te tiras al piso. El paso estaba así de alto. Porque aquí va pasar la guayín, la camionetilla que nos va a recoger. Y ya llegó el carro que estábamos esperando, se dio vuelta alrededor de un árbol y se parqueo al lado de nosotros y rápido, metense, metense, toma el periódico y haz como que vas leyendo me dijeron.

And they said to me, if you see a car, especially if it says US Immigration, throw yourself to the ground. The pass was this high. Because this is where the wagon, the truck will pick us up. And the car we were waiting for arrived, it turned around the tree and it parked next to us and they said, quickly, come in, come in, take the paper and pretend that you’re reading it.

Muchos nervios, muy emocionado. Cuando me dijeron, ya los pies los tienes en los Estados Unidos, en tierra americana. … Ya me hicieron recordar como que fue ayer cuando pasó todo esto.

[20:19] Ya cuando fui a dar la plática a la universidad de Earlham, tenía tres amigos que hablaban español, que habían aprendido español. Era Bill, Tim y Manoj. Y entonces, me dijeron, vamos a la librería, te vamos a enseñar algo, y sacaron el libro de Amnistía Internacional que nunca había visto yo. Ahí encontré los nombres de mis primas y de mis tías.

I was very nervous, very excited. When they said, you already have your feet in the United States, on US soil. … You’ve made me remember as though it was yesterday that this all happened.

When I went to give a talk at Earlham University, I had three friends that spoke Spanish, that had learned Spanish. They were Bill, Tim, and Manoj. And so, they said, let’s go to the bookstore, we’re going to show you something, and they took out an Amnesty International book that I had never seen. There I found the names of my cousins and my aunts.

RR Team: It was only in the US that you found that book?

Javier: Si. Indiana. En el estado de Indiana. Yes, Indiana, in the state of Indiana.

Interpreter: [20:55] And so the Sanctuary Movement took you to, asked you to speak at the university?

Javier: Si, porque los estudiantes que me interpretaban a mi eran estudiantes de la universidad. Y a mi casa llegaban profesores, llegaban maestros, y llegaban alumnos, y me llevaban a otras ciudades a dar platica.

Yes, because the students that interpreted for me were students from the university. At my house arrived professors, teachers, and students, and they would take me to other cities to give talks.

Interpreter: So, after Arizona, did you go to Indiana?

Javier: No, de Nogales me regresaron para Arizona, de Nogales para Arizona me regresaron, para juntarnos a todos, a las seis. A los que se habían venido de Guatemala y yo que iba llegando de Tijuana. [21:34] Ahí nos juntamos los seis de nuevo. Si, hay nos juntamos todos. De Nogales.

Ahí ya llegó una van grande de esas de 15 pasajeros, una van grande de la universidad de Earlham, que llevaba su letrero, e iban ellos tres. Iba Tim, iba Manoj, e iba Guillermo. Tim, Guillermo y Manoj. Y Bill. Y ellos llegaron con nosotros y nos saludamos como que ya nos conocíamos, y vámonos, que los vamos a llevar a donde van a vivir. [22:17] Y el movimiento santuario pagó dos años y medio, la casa en donde vivíamos, y nos daban aparte un dinero en efectivo para comprar comida.

No, from Nogales they returned me to Arizona, from Nogales to Arizona they returned me, to bring us all together, the six of us. Those that came from Guatemala and me that was arriving from Tijuana. That is where the six of us were reunited again. Yes, there is where we all reunited. From Nogales.

A large van like those for 15 people had already arrived there, a large van from Earlham University, that had its sign, and the three of them were in it. Tim was there, Manoj was there, and William was there. They came up to us and greeted us as though they already knew us, and said, let’s go, we’re going to take you to where you’re going to live. And the Sanctuary Movement paid expenses for us for two and a half years, the house where we lived, and apart from that, they gave us some cash to buy food.

Y ya después, a los dos años y medio, si ya me dijeron, te damos cuatro oportunidades, pero viene otra familia que necesita ayuda también. Una maestra, se me olvida el nombre. Si, de la organización santuario. [23:03] Entonces me dijeron, te quieres ir a Australia, a México, Canadá, o de regreso a Guatemala? No, Guatemala, no, le dije. Está decidido, de una vez ahora lo decido, a Guatemala no. Entonces ya saque prospectos de Canadá, cómo estaba aquí para los refugiados y dije ahí me conviene. Y nos vinieron a dejar hasta Detroit, los de la universidad. Si, manejando.

And then afterwards, when the two and a half years were over, they told me, we will give you four choices, but there is another family that also needs help. A teacher, I forget her name. Yes, from the Sanctuary Movement. So, they said to me, do you want to go to Australia, Mexico, Canada or return to Guatemala? No, Guatemala, no, I told her. It is decided, I decide once and for all, to Guatemala no. So, I started to look into prospects for Canada, how things were here for refugees and I said that is where is best for me. And they came to leave us up to Detroit, those from the university. Yes, driving.

Interpreter: [23:30] When did your wife reunite with you?

Javier: Ay, la fecha. No, ella regresó en enero. Yo perdí un, me pusieron una fecha que yo falle. Me pusieron el 10 de enero que yo me tenía que venir para Nogales. Y mi patrón me dijo, necesito urgente este trabajo, me dijo, no tengo nadie quien lo haga. Entonces se comunicaron conmigo, santuario se comunicó conmigo, me dijeron ahora vas a llegar 20 días atrasados a Nogales, me dijo. No fueron 20, fueron 18. No, para poder pasar yo. Es que ellos entraron por Texas y yo entré por Nogales. Dijeron que éramos muchos, seis, eran muchos.

Oh, the date… no, she returned in January. I missed, they gave me a date that I missed. They set January 10 as the day I had to return to Nogales. And my boss said to me I need this work urgently, I don’t have anyone who can do it. So, they communicated with me, Sanctuary communicated with me, they told me you’re going to arrive in Nogales 20 days behind. They weren’t 20, they were 18. No, so that I could pass. It’s that they entered through Texas and I entered through Nogales. They said we were too many, six, we were many.

Interpreter: And the other three children?

Javier: [24:28] Si, ella traía los otros tres, los mayores. Yo llevaba la más pequeña. Yes, she brought the other three, the older ones. I brought the youngest.

Interpreter: Can you tell us what you remember the most, from Indiana, Richmond?

Javier: Ay, muchos recuerdos buenos, los profesores, los alumnos, no nos eran como amigos, sino que como familia. Y cuando me pedían que yo fuera a dar una plática a otra ciudad u otra universidad, yo los acompañaba con gusto. Mucha gente linda que no puedo olvidar nunca.

Oh, there are many good memories, the professors, the students, they weren’t like friends, but rather like family. And when they asked me to give a talk in another city or another university, I would accompany them with pleasure. So many lovely people that I can never forget.

Interviewer: What would you share when you went to these other universities? What would you tell them?

Javier: [25:14] Ahí si, la pura situación política. Político, todo ahí, y de todo lo que sabía de la guerrilla, todos los movimientos, todo lo que sucedía dentro del país. Y ellos también están estudiando situaciones políticas. Entonces en la clase de políticas, de estudio, en la hora de política, ahí era en donde me metían a mi.

Yes, [I spoke about] the pure political situation. It was all political there, and all that I knew about the guerrilla, all of the movements, all of what happened within the country. And they are also studying political situations. Therefore, in the politics class, during the hour about politics study, that’s where they would fit me in.

[25:46] Ah si, maravillosas. Nos dieron, nos daban trabajo, ella de limpiar casas y yo cortando yardas. Nos daban trabajo los profesores de la universidad. A la casa que iba a trabajar yo, ahí comía con los profesores. Los dos años y medio, los dieron trabajo, diario. Pero no nos miraban como amigos, como familia.

Oh, yes, wonderful. They gave us, they gave us work, for her, cleaning houses, and for me, landscaping. The university professors would give us work. Whatever house I went to work at, I would eat there with the professors. The two and half years, they gave us work, daily. But they didn’t see us as friends, but as family.

Interpreter: Are you still in touch with them?

Javier: [26:20] Fíjate que no, no, ya, no se, creo que han fallecido algunos de los profesores. Fui solo una vez cuando saque la residencia y saque visa americana, nos fuimos todos a visitarlos. Si, nos recibieron muy bien. Ay, recuerde el nombre de una de ellas: Labona, preciosa. Ella era profesora de la universidad.

Well, no, no, I don’t know, I think that some of the professors have died. I only went one time when I got my permanent residency and I got a US visa. We all went to visit them. Yes, they welcomed us very well. Oh, I remember the name of one of them: Labona, beautiful. She was a university professor.

Interpreter: With the people that you met in Indiana, who were part of the Sanctuary Movement, did you have conversations about why they were in the Sanctuary Movement?

Javier: Si, ellos me dijeron con toda la claridad, la organización es clandestina, hace las cosas fuera de la ley. [27:23] Porque cruzaba gente ilegalmente, indocumentados. Y me dijeron todo bien clarito que ellos recibían los donativos de gente muy adinerada, entonces dicen, ahora les tenemos que mandar fotografías y que vean la gente que estamos ayudando, eso es todo. Y algunas veces nos llevaron a presentar con algunos de ellos.

Yes, they told me with complete clarity, the organization is clandestine, they do things outside of the law. Because they crossed people illegally, undocumented. And they told me everything very clearly that they received donations from very well-off people. They say, now we have to send them photographs so they can see the people that we are helping, that is all. And sometimes they would take us to present us to them.

Interpreter: Did you ask them, did you talk about why they were doing this kind of work?

Javier: [27:52] Ay, si, yo me detenía a platicar con ellos, y platicando con los pastores, me dijeron, esto que vamos a hacer contigo ya llevamos 25 años haciéndolo, y nunca nos ha agarrado inmigración. Lo menos que podría decir es que Dios les guardara y les diera su bendición.

Ah, yes, I would take the time to talk with them, and talk with the pastors. They said to me, what we’re going to do with you, we’ve spent 25 years doing and immigration has never detained us. The least that I can say is that God watched over them and gave them his blessing.

Interpreter: And when they asked you about these four choices, and you chose Canada, why did you choose Canada?

Javier: [28:23] Mira, es que con Bill, el estudiante de la universidad que hablaba bien español, pasamos siete noches para escribir la historia con toda la claridad posible, de mi historia. Y recuérdate bien, acuérdate de los nombres, acuérdate de las fechas. Y que paciencia, que paciencia la de Bill. Se iba dos, tres de la mañana, noche a noche, y tenía que ir a estudiar.

Y después todos querían leer mi historia, porque ellos sí… Esta historia, casi como la traje, tiene siete páginas, la historia. Y es la misma que entregue yo aquí. Pero luego, luego me llamaron a migración de Toronto, y me dijo mi abogada, me dijo, tú eres uno de los mejores clientes que he tenido, porque me enfrente como a 20 preguntas que me hizo el fiscal. Y yo le respondí pero perfectamente bien. No, yo no dije así. No, yo no dije eso. Si, así es como tu lo estas viendo.

Look, it’s that with Bill, the student from the university that spoke Spanish well, we spent seven nights writing my story as clearly as possible. And remember well, remember the names, remember the dates. And what patience, what patience Bill showed. He would leave at two or three in the morning, night after night, and he would have to go study.

And afterwards everyone wanted to read my story, because they ... this story, almost like I brought it, was seven pages, my story. And it is the same one that I turned in here. But later, later they called me into Immigration in Toronto, and my lawyer told me you are one of the best clients that I have had, because I dealt with 20 questions that the prosecutor asked me. And I responded perfectly well. No, I did not say it like that. No, I did not say that. Yes, that’s the way it is as you are seeing it.

[29:47] Ya cuando llego a las 20 preguntas, eran dos jueces. Una que era cieguita, y la otra que estaba normal. Y entonces se paró la juez que era cieguita y le dijo, señor fiscal, ya basta con sus preguntas. Está repitiendo mucho la misma pregunta en diferentes maneras. Y ya después, después de eso, ya dijo una de las jueces, pueden tomar 15 minutos de descanso. Voy a tomar la decisión final con mi colega. Y regresaron a los 15 minutos. Y vienen, fueron como 20 minutos de nervios, porque la juez decía, en vista que hemos, hemos visto esto, y esto, y esto, y todo esto, y que ha pasado el señor, y tomando en cuenta todo eso, y los nervios que estaban así. Y nunca decían nada, si me quedaba, si me iba a quedar o si me iba. [30:57] A las 20 minutos eternos ya dijo, tomando en cuenta la situación y el peligro que corrió el señor Garrido y su familia, hemos decidido. Esta aceptado.

Feliz, saltaba, gritaba, no hallaba que más hacer. Si, Moisés, estas niñas, 7, 8, 9, y 10, un año se lleva cada uno. Estaban chiquitos.

And when it came to the 20 questions, there were two judges. One who was kind of blind, and the other one that was normal. And so the judge that was blind stood up and said, Mr. Prosecutor, enough with your questions. You are repeating the same question in different ways. And after, after this, one of the judges said, you can take a 15 minute break. I am going to make the final decision with my colleague. And they returned in 15 minutes. And they return. It was like 20 minutes of nerves, because the judge said, given that we have seen this, and this, and this, and all of this, and what the man went through, and taking into account all of this… and my nerves were like this. And they never said anything outright about whether I would be staying, if I would stay or if I would go. After 20 eternal minutes she said, taking into account the situation and the danger that this man and his family went through, we have decided. You’re accepted.

Happy, jumping, yelling, I didn’t know what else to do. Yes, Moises, these girls, 7, 8, 9, and 10, each was a year apart. They were little.

Interpreter: [31:33] And what year was this? In what year were you accepted as a resident?

Javier: En el año 1993. Y la ciudadanía en 1995. Agosto 22 del ’95 me hice ciudadano. En el año ’88 [entré a Canadá]. In 1993. And citizenship in 1995. August 22, of ’95 I became a citizen. In ’88 [I entered Canada]. RR Team: ¿En Canadá o en Estados Unidos?

Javier: En Estados Unidos. Ah no, en ’88, en Estados Unidos. A Canadá, no, no, no, mitad del ’91. Creo que abril o mayo del ’91 entré a Canadá.

In the United States. Oh no, in ’88, in the United States. To Canada, no, no, no, mid-’91. I think it was in April or May of ’91 that I entered Canada.

RR Team: A Windsor o a Toronto? Javier: A Windsor. No, de ahí los viajes a Toronto solo eran para ir a la corte con mi abogada.

To Windsor. No, from there the trips to Toronto were only to go to court with my lawyer.

Interpreter: [32:30] So, how was your journey from Indiana to Detroit?

Javier: En una van de la universidad Earlham. Y de allá ellos mismos nos entregaron a inmigración canadiense, los tres estudiantes. Y ya todavía nos contestaron que tenían una casa rentados para que llegáramos a vivir. Todo lo organizaron el movimiento santuario. Ya tenían lista la casa.

In a van from Earlham University. And from there, they took us to Canadian Immigration, the three students. And they even answered for us that they had a house rented for us to live in. The Sanctuary Movement had it all organized. They already had the house.

[33:06] Tenía lista la casa, el abogado, y el único compromiso era ir a estudiar inglés. Y los niños a la escuela, y los papás a estudiar inglés.

They had everything ready, the house, the lawyer, and the only commitment was to go study English. And for the children to go to school, and for the parents to study English.

Interpreter: [33:29]And when you crossed the border from the United States to enter Canada, what were the questions that you were asked at the border?

Javier: No preguntaron. Fue eso con inmigración canadiense. Los estudiantes se encargaron de todo. Entonces dijeron esta es la historia del señor que viene a pedir refugio. Entonces, dijeron ya, pueden pasar. Y pueden pasar, y ya aquí con nosotros ya terminó. Y ya llegó una persona para acompañarnos para ir a enseñarnos la casa.

They did not ask. That was with Canadian immigration. The students took care of everything. They said this is the story of the man who is asking for refugee status. So, they said, you can pass. And you can pass, with us, everything’s done. And someone came to accompany us and show us our home.

Nos dieron la dirección. El otro día llegamos con los velices, la ropa que traíamos, y algunas cosas que traíamos porque tuvimos que ocupar una troca, para entrar las cosas que traíamos de Estados Unidos. No me acuerdo quien nos llevó las cosas, porque venían en el carro de Earlham, de la universidad. No me acuerdo fijate...quien nos acompaño, quien nos fue a enseñar la casa. Es lo único que no me acuerdo.

They gave us the address. The other day we came with suitcases, the clothes that we had, and other things that we had brought because we took up a truck, in order to bring in the things that we brought from the United States. I don’t remember who brought the stuff, because they came in the car from Earlham, from the university. I don’t remember who accompanied us, who went and showed us the house. It’s the only thing that I don’t remember.

Interpreter: That’s ok. What did it feel like to land in Canada?

Javier: [34:51] Ah, me sentí un triunfador. Como el que corre maratón y llega a la meta. Y ya sabía que estábamos en un país en donde estaban seguros los niños y todos, sin peligro.

Ah, I felt like a winner. Like someone who runs a marathon and reaches the finish line. And I knew that we were in a country where the children and all of us were safe, without danger.

[RR Team: How did you feel about leaving the US?]

Javier: [35:08] Ya me había gustado, pero déjame, algo que se me olvidaba, es que de ahí de la ciudad de Richmond, me llevaron para Indianápolis y me dijeron que tenia que ir porque iban a ponerme dos abogados y yo platique con ellos y un intérprete. Pero los dos abogados dijeron esto. Si aplicas, vas a vivir dos años tranquilo, pero de este momento, lo más seguro es que te van a deportar para tu país.

Y entonces le dije, mira Bill, diles que no me interesa aplicar para refugio aquí, y no empezamos nada ahí. Nos regresamos para Richmond de nuevo. Y ya cuando me dijeron que tenía cuatro lugares para irme, entonces, entonces, le dije Bill, ayúdame a buscar información de Canadá, como están los refugiados allá. Entonces él me llevó toda la información. Ya le dije, ahí me conviene, le dije yo. ¿Estás seguro? Si, le dije yo.

I had already gotten to like it, but wait, I am forgetting something. It’s that from there, the city of Richmond, they took me to Indianapolis and they told me that I had to go because I was going to get two lawyers and I spoke with them through an interpreter. But the two lawyers said this, if you apply here, you will have two years in peace, but from that moment on, the surest thing is that they will deport you to your country.

And so I told him, look Bill, tell them I am not interested in applying for refugee status here, and we didn’t start anything. We returned to Richmond again. And when they told me that they had four places for me to go, then, then, I told Bill, help me to find information about Canada, what it’s like for refugees there. So, he brought me all of the information. I told him, that’s where is best for me, I told him. Are you sure? Yes, I told him.

Interpreter: [36:18] Did you know why the United States wasn’t taking you?

Javier: [36:25] Porque no había amnistía. Estaba de presidente, no recuerdo. Creo que estaba George Bush. Dijo que no estaban aceptando refugiados.

Because there wasn’t amnesty. I don’t remember who was President. I think it was George Bush. They said they weren’t accepting refugees.

Interpreter: What were your first few months like in Canada?

Javier: [36:48] Difíciles, por el idioma. Y aun los niños regresaban llorando de la escuela porque no entendían nada. Muy duro. Y fui a estudiar inglés. Ni lo aprendí bien, pero un día en el trabajo, me dijo un canadiense, un compañero de trabajo, si vives en Canadá, no hables español. Si vives en Canadá, tienes que hablar inglés. Pero más adelante, días después, fui a otro trabajo, y cuando me habló el supervisor, yo buscaba un intérprete, y no había nadie. Y tuve que empezar a hablar inglés. Y me di cuenta de lo que yo había aprendido. Ya se iba a hacer la platica, me tuve que acordar de todo. Pero creo que me hacía falta. Me ha hecho bien, no me ha hecho mal.

Difficult, due to the language. Yes. And even the children would return crying from school because they didn’t understand anything. Very hard. And I went to study English. I didn’t even learn it well, but one day at work, a Canadian co-worker said to me, if you live in Canada, don’t speak Spanish. If you live in Canada, you have to speak English. But a while later, a few days after, I went to another job, and when the supervisor spoke to me, I looked for an interpreter and there was no one. And I had to start to speak English. And I became aware of what I had learned. I knew I was going to do this talk, I had to remember everything. But I needed to do this. It did me well, it didn’t do me any harm.

RR Team: Thank you so much for sharing.

Interpreter: [38:08] What was it like to re-establish your life again here in Canada? Empezar de nuevo?

Javier: [38:21] Ah, pues, estaba muy difícil. Todo diferente al país de nosotros. Bueno, muchas cosas buenas que contar de Canadá, pero les voy a contar una mala que me pasó también. Que a los tres años, a los tres años de vivir aquí en Canadá, mi esposa con sus amigas, se comunicaban mucho, las que ya tenían más tiempo de vivir en Canadá. Yo creo que ella hizo mal en tomar en cuenta los consejos. Pero a los tres años nos divorciamos. Pues decía que aquí las mujeres tenían los mismo derechos que el hombre y que ella no permitiera esto ni el otro, ni el otro. Y a los tres años dijimos para no llegar a cosas de corte, de golpes, y todo eso, o tal vez hasta que nos matemos, mejor nos separamos. Ya para entonces, ya estaban mayor de edad todos los hijos. Si, la mas pequeña ya tenía 17 años. Y unos [los mayores] se fueron a vivir aparte solos. Y las niñas se quedaron con la mamá por un tiempo, y hasta la fecha todavía viven con ella, en Alberta.

Ah, well, it was very difficult. Everything different from our country. Well, there are many good things to tell about Canada, but I am going to tell you something bad that also happened. After three years of living here in Canada, my wife with her friends, they communicated a lot to each other, those that had the most time living in Canada. I think that she did badly in taking into the account the advice. But after three years, we got divorced. Well, she would say that here women have the same rights as men and that she would not allow this or the other or the other. Well, after three years we said that in order to not end up in court, or domestic violence, and all that , or perhaps even to killing each other, it was better to separate. By then, all of our children were older, no longer minors. Yes, the youngest was already 17 years old. And some [the eldest] went to live on their own. And the girls stayed with their mom for some time, and to date, they still live with her, in Alberta.

Interpreter: [40:11] When you think back about leaving Guatemala, do you think you found what you were looking for?

Javier: Sí, considero que sí. [40:21] Sobre todo un futuro y otras facilidades para los hijos, principalmente ellos, porque yo ya tengo muchos años de edad. Tengo 71, y ya no se pueden hacer planes. Pero ellos están creciendo, están haciendo niños. Ya los que si van a recibir mucho del viaje para Canadá son ellos. Y los nietos, el futuro de ellos está seguro. Ya, así es.

Yes, I think so. Above all, a future and other opportunities for the children, mainly for them, because I am too old. I am 71, and I can no longer make plans. But they are growing, they’re having children. They are the ones who will receive lots from the trip to Canada. And the grandchildren, their future is secure. Yes, that’s the way it is.

Interpreter: [41:07] When you think back about your union work and your political work, how do you feel about it now?

Javier: Pues, ha cambiado mucho la situación. En esos 28 años que salí de Guatemala. Ha cambiado mucho. [41:26] Muchas cosas, una de las cosas que cambiaron fue que paró la guerra de 40 años. Y la situación política a mi parecer no mejorada, no ha cambiado, porque se cambian cosas pero sigue funcionando lo mismo. Y ya no hay guerra, pero sigue habiendo muertos. Sigue peligroso, entonces no se puede contar mucho de bueno.

Well, the situation has changed a lot. In the last 28 years since I left Guatemala, a lot has changed. Many things. One of the things that changed was that the war of 40 years stopped. And it seems to me that the political situation has not improved, it has not changed, because things changed but things function the same. And there is no longer a war, but there are still deaths. It continues to be dangerous, so I can’t say much that is good.

Interpreter: Why did you agree to share your story with us?

Javier: [42:02] Porque ya lo había hecho en Estados Unidos, y me dijeron que muchos habían salido beneficiados porque se informaron de cosas que nunca habían oído. Entonces, yo pienso que con una mano uno recibe, con la otra tiene que dar. Si. Hasta me alegro cuando tu me dijiste. Hasta me alegro poder hacerlo después de tantos años.

Because I had already done so in the United States, and they told me many had benefited from it because they were informed about things they had never heard about. So, I think that with one hand one receives, and with the other hand ones gives. Yes. I was even happy when you let me know about this. I was happy to be able to do this after so many years.

[42:28] Lo que se va a alcanzar al enterarse otras personas más, es de que van a saber que situación política había en aquella época cuando yo salí. Y entonces hasta pueden comparar la situación política que había en aquella época con la situación política de hoy para los que están estudiando. Eso es lo que se gana.

What other people will learn about is to know about the kind of political situation that there was in that period when I left. And those that are studying can even compare the political situation in that period with today’s political situation. That is what can be won.

Interpreter: And when you hear the news now, about the caravans arriving at the US-Mexico border, or even those who are trying to cross the Canada-US border? What do you think about what’s happening in the news?

Javier: [43:15] Lo que yo pienso es que ellos necesitan ayuda afuera del país, afuera de su país, necesitan mucha ayuda. Y yo cuando miro en la televisión que vienen, hasta, he llorado, porque yo lo mismo pasé yo. [43:37] Cuando miro esa gente que viene encima del tren, de diferentes países entonces me acuerdo cuando yo fui, cuando yo venía ahí. Muchas veces hasta deseando hasta un vaso de agua. Y para ellos está difícil porque salen de Centro América y no saben ni a donde ni como llegar. Yo me abrí camino, yo encontré la puerta, pero hay miles que no, que no lo logren, no tienen esa bendición, esa ventaja.

What I think is that they need help outside of their country, outside of their country, they need lots of help. And when I see on televisión that they are coming, I have even cried, because I went through the same. When I see those people on top of the train, from different countries, then I remember when it was me, when I was there. Many times just wanting a glass of water. And for them it is difficult because they leave from Central America and they don’t know where they’re going or how to get there. I found a way, I found the door, but there are thousands that don’t, that do not succeed, they do not have that blessing, that advantage.

[44:49] No, prefiero no ver las noticias, porque luego me da por llorar. Veo niños, veo mujeres embarazadas, hombres con una ropa sucia y vieja, porque ya se les acabó. Yo no pensé que iba a ser tan, tan real, recordar todo en esta noche. Me voy a sentir bien, ahora que voy de regreso. Me siento bien de haberlo hecho.

No, I prefer not to watch the news, because then I feel like crying. I see children, I see pregnant women, men with dirty and old clothes, because they’re worn out. I did not think this was going to be so real, so real, to remember all this tonight. I am going to feel good, now that I return. I feel good having done this.

RR Team: Thank you so much.

Javier: [45:31] Me agarraron de sorpresa. Luego de tantos años, ya casi lo tenía todo por olvidado, y aparecen ellos que quieren escucharme. Yo me siento privilegiado.

You caught me by surprise. After so many years, I had almost forgotten it, and people appear who want to listen to me. I feel privileged.

Interpreter: It’s a privilege for us to hear your story.

Javier: Ay, Dios mío. Es que ya pueden, desde allá tienen autorización para publicarlo. Oh, my God. It’s that you can, you have my permission to publish this.

[46:07] Por la inconformidad con la política del gobierno, porque un presidente le entregaba el poder a otro. Este se lo entregaba a otro, y la pobreza y salario, salarios bajísimos. El rico se hacía más rico, y el pobre vivía peor, más pobre. Por eso que había guerrilla contra el gobierno. Si, por la injusticia. Así es.

Due to the disagreement with government policy, because one President would hand over power to another. This one would hand over power to another, and there was poverty and the salary, the salaries were very low. The rich would get richer, and the poor lived worse, poorer. This is why there were guerrillas against the government. Yes, due to the injustice. That’s the way it is.

Interpreter: Ok, thank you very much for your time and your stories, your history and I think we should end it here.

Javier: Ok, me dio mucho gusto. Ok, it was my great pleasure.