Roberto's transcript

Roberto: [00:00] Bueno, yo nací en un pueblo pequeño en El Salvador, en la zona para-central, en la falda de un volcán que se llama Chicontepec. En lengua náhuatl significa cerro de dos chiches. Este, bueno. Crecí hasta aproximadamente ahí a los siete años. Por problemas de familia nos movimos a una ciudad grande. Pero después de la muerte de mi padre cuando yo tenia 13 años. [0:37] El murió el 14 de febrero de 1975. Después de que muere mi papa, la ciudad grande, como yo vivía mucho, vivía con él prácticamente, porque esta como semi-separado con mi mama, yo decidí regresar al pueblo por mi cuenta. Estaba por cumplir los 14 años. En mi regreso continuo estudiando en la noche porque tenia que trabajar. Ahí donde aprendí todos los detalles de plantar café, caña de azúcar, trabaje el campo, a mi edad. Pero aquellos años eran años bastantes complicados, porque había una lucha social bastante grande por una injusticia que siempre estuvo en mi país. [1:37] Hablando un poco de historia en aquel entonces en el país, a pesar de que yo era un joven, después, leí bastante. En ese entonces prácticamente eran 14 las familias dueñas de El Salvador. Well, I was born in a small town in El Salvador, in the central zone, on the skirts of a volcano that is called Chicontepec. In the Nahuatl language, it means, mountain of the two breasts. This, well, I grew up there approximately up until I was seven years old. Due to family problems, we moved to a big city. But after my father’s death when I was 13 years. He died February 14, 1975. After my dad died, the big city, since I lived mostly, I lived with him practically, he was semi-separated from my mom, I decided to go back to my town on my own. I was about to turn 14. With my return I continue to study nights because I had to work. That is where I learned all of the details of planting coffee, sugarcane, I worked the fields, at my age. But those years were very complicated, because there was a pretty large social struggle due to the injustice that always existed in the country. [1:37] Talking a bit about history, at that time in the country, despite me being a youth, I read a lot. At that time there were practically 14 families that owned El Salvador. [1:51] Había una lucha social, una confrontación porque estaban los salarios en el campo eran de miseria. No teníamos un sistema salud, no estábamos beneficiados con nada. Entonces este, en ese tiempo, se comienza a estar diferentes tipos de organizaciones a nivel nacional. Y en nuestra área se dio unas organizaciones de grandes como pequeñas y en el sector en donde yo me movía, en el campo, se da la BTC, que se llama la Brigada de Trabajadores del Campo, que era organización para buscar beneficios. Me acuerdo que en aquel entonces creo que pagaban como 2.50 colones, que eran menos de 1 dólar, como casi 70 centavos del dólar en aquel entonces, al día. Around 70 cents US al día, per day. Uno esta joven, y en esas épocas, uno se incorpora y se mete de corazón. Yo me metí de corazón en la organización y comencé a trabajar dentro de ella, hacer activismo, y fue creciendo dentro de la historia de esta organización hasta que ya en los años ‘79, ‘78, ’79, eran años bien complicados, había una persecución contra la organización campesina enorme. Y en esa época comenzaron asesinar a los miembros de la organización. [1:51] There was a social struggle, a confrontation because of the salaries in the countryside, which were poverty wages. We didn’t have a health system. We didn’t have any benefits. So, at this time, various organizations start to emerge at the national level. And in our area there were big organizations as well as small organizations, and in the sector where I was active, in the fields, the BTC, which is called the Brigade of Agricultural Workers, emerges, which is an organization that seeks benefits. I remember that at that time, I think that they paid something like 2.50 colons, that was less than $1 dollar, like almost 70 cents on the dollar at that time, per day. Around 70 cents US per day. You are young, and in that era, you get involved and participate with all of your heart. I was involved with all of my heart in the organization and I started to work within it, doing activism, and I grew up within the history of that organization until ’79, ’78, ’79. Those were very complicated years. There was massive persecution against small-scale farmer organizing, and in that period, they started to assassinate members of the organization. [3:47] Entonces, lo vimos en un momento dado tuvimos que ya no dormir en las casas. Ya no dormíamos en la casa, porque había asesinatos a muchos compañeros jovencitos. Y podía dar una lista de ellos, vea, que eran mis amigos, la mayor parte de mis amigos los asesinaron. Uno de los mas famosos, nosotros de decíamos de nickname, Perica. Young boy, lo agarraron y porque le encontraron un panfleto de la organización, lo agarraron, lo torturaron y lo fusilaron. [3:47] So, the way we saw it in a certain moment is that we could no longer sleep in our homes. We would no longer sleep at home, because a lot of young comrades had been assassinated. One of the most famous, we would call him Perica (Parrot). Young boy, they caught him and because they found one of the organization’s pamphlets on him, they took him, tortured him and shot him. RRTeam: [4:28] Who’s they that captured and tortured him? Roberto: [4:30] The national guard. The army forces. En el pueblo existía la guardia nacional, que era como lo mas fuerte y ahí existía, lo llamábamos los paramilitares, que se llamaban Orden. Este, bueno, ya para los 80s prácticamente, nosotros ya no vivíamos en el pueblo. Yo regrese a una parte de la ciudad grande, porque era mas difícil que te agarraran, te encontraran. Y vivimos… Bueno, eso es un poco la historia de esa época en El Salvador lo que viví. Si quieres nos saltamos a cuando salí. [4:30] The national guard. The army forces. The national guard was in the town, which was the strongest force, and there was also what we called the paramilitaries, that called themselves Orden (Order). This was, well, already practically the 80s. We no longer lived in the town. I returned to live in an area in the big city, because it was more difficult for them to catch you there, to find you. And we lived… Well, this is a bit of the history of that time in El Salvador that I lived through. If you like we can jump to the time when I left. [5:22] Como me fui incorporando, fue por un amigo, el vive aquí también. El me dijo, fíjate, que estando en esta organización era importante para todos los que trabajamos en el campo. Si te interesa. Yo le dije si. Fuimos a la primera reunión y vi realmente que lo que se pedía era justo, porque… [5:49] Y, existía miedo, porque en aquel entonces en las fincas de café, por ejemplo, existía un cuerpo de inseguridad, pues no le dijo seguridad, lo que llamaba policía de hacienda, es lo que les cuidaba las propiedades a los grandes millonarios. Y ellos siempre estaban ahí. Se sentía la presión de ellos. Entonces era como, como alguien que no tiene poder militar pero que con organización vas a convertirte en fuerzas, cuando les decimos no vamos a trabajar, vea, mientras no nos paguen tanto. [5:22] How I got involved was through a friend, who also lives here. He said to me, look, being in this organization is important for all of us that work in the fields. If it interests you. I said yes to him. We went to the first meeting and I really saw that was being asked for was just, because… [5:49] And there was fear, because at that time in the coffee plantations, for example, there were insecurity bodies, since I don’t call them security, which was were called the hacienda (‘ranch’) police, who took care of the properties for the big millionaires. And they were always there. You could feel the pressure from them. So, it was like, like someone that doesn’t have military power, but that with our organization we were transforming ourselves into having power when we say that we would not work if they do not pay us enough. RRTeam: [6:39] What was the education and training like within the organization? Roberto: La verdad era que existía en aquel entonces organización de grandes que aglutinaban diferentes tipos de sectores. Vea, y por ejemplo la cabeza grande de la BTC era la MLP, que era un movimiento de masas, un movimiento de liberación popular. En esta organización aglutinaba el sector obrero, aglutinaba el sector estudiantil, el sector del campo, entonces era bastante grande. [7:25] Entonces este, eso era en aquel entonces, un movimiento popular. Entonces en el movimiento popular habían diferentes tipos de organizaciones. Vea, como en todos lados en Latinoamérica en aquellos momentos. Eso era. Un movimiento que creció por el descontento popular. The truth was that there was at that time a large organization that grouped together different types of sectors. For example, the main head of the BTC was the MLP, which was a mass movement, a movement for popular liberation. In this organization was grouped together the workers sector, the student sector, the agricultural sector, so it was pretty large. [7:25] So this, this was at that time, a popular movement. So, in the popular movement there were different types of organizations, like in all parts of Latin America in those times. That was it. A movement that grew due to popular unrest. [7:51] When you are growing up, you are more interested in reading, in history, in what happened, then you start to see, you know, follow the history, how it was before you, before you were involved in the movement, and then you start to see it is more necessary your participation to growing up… disculpa. Te dan mas ganas de hacer crecer el movimiento y de incorporarte porque sos importante en esta lucha. La organización es lo que le trae a todo país desarrollo, porque cuando no te organizaste mantenés sumiso y te pisotean y hacen lo que quieren contigo, vean… When you are growing up, you are more interested in reading, in history, in what happened, then you start to see, you know, follow the history, how it was before you, before you were involved in the movement, and then you start to see it is more necessary your participation to growing up… sorry. You really feel like making the movement grow and getting involved, because you are important in this struggle. Organization is what brings every country development, because when you don’t organize, you remain submissive and they walk all over you and do what they to you, because you are not capable of… Remembering people in the movement [8:43] Hay mucho, que en la cabeza te queda muchas cosas bonitas y duras también, porque en aquel entonces nosotros logramos tener una dirección campesina muy buena. [8:57] Uno le decíamos el Chato Tomas, a un campesino muy fuerte y muy inteligente. No me recuerdo de una mayor parte de los nombres de ellos. [Name deleted] otro joven un joven muy bueno… Los dos los asesinaron. Este… a Mario lo asesinan en su casa. Nosotros lo íbamos a enterrar en un cementerio que estaba cerca de Verapaz, otro pueblo cerca de mi. Pero un señor que venia nos dijeron que la guardia estaba en el cementerio y que nos fuéramos porque iban a matar a la gente que iba. Entonces decidimos enterrarlo en iglesia. Mario Ernesto esta enterrado afuera de la iglesia. Entonces, así era como diferentes… como a toda la dirigencia del movimiento la mataron. There’s a lot, a lot is still in your head like many beautiful things and hard ones too, because at that time we managed to have great agricultural movement leadership. One of them we called Chato Tomas, a very strong and intelligent small-scale farmer. I don’t remember many of their names. [Name deleted], another youth, a very good youth, very good. They assassinated the two of them. This… they assassinated Mario in his house. We were going to bury him in a cemetery that was close to Verapaz, another town close to me. But a man that was coming told us that the guard was in the cemetery and to not go because they were going to kill people that went. So, we decided to bury him in the church. Mario is buried outside of the church. So, that this is how different… how all of the movement leadership was killed. Entonces nosotros… entonces, después nos mantuvimos diferentes alejados, después lo aglutinamos de nuevo, los compañeros que estábamos de la zona. Como les digo, prefiero dejar quizá una parte de esta historia. Vea, porque es una historia que lleva, podíamos pasar hablando noches y noches de todo esto. So, we… so, after we remained dispersed, after we came together again, those of us comrades that were in the area. Like I am saying to you, I prefer to leave a part of this history. See, because it is a history that has, that we could spend nights and nights talking about. Bueno, de ahí ya en julio, bueno salí como en junio para San Salvador, y en julio llegue, salí para afuera del país. Well, from there already in July, well, I left in June for San Salvador, and in July, I arrived, I left for outside of the country. In 1984. In July 1984, I crossed to Guatemala. Pase a Guatemala y bueno, después pase a México. México. Logre llegar al DF, a la capital. Mi hermano, uno de mis hermanos estaba casado con una muchacha mexicana que vivía en Estados Unidos, entonces llegue a donde la familia de él. In 1984. In July 1984, I crossed to Guatemala. I crossed into Guatemala and well, afterwards I crossed into Mexico. Mexico. I managed to get to the DF, the capital. My brother, one of my brothers was married to a Mexican woman that lived in the United States, so I arrived with her family. En El Salvador, logré a través de mi cuñado sacar la visa para México. Eso nunca se hacía porque yo no podía ir, entonces mi cuñado tenia un contacto y ellos hicieron todo para sacarme la visa. Es un poquito complicado, más que todo México, en aquellos entonces México era como, bueno, era, yo tengo, desde entonces nunca volví a pasar ahí, pero eran malos. No el pueblo, sino los mismos. Tenían casetas donde habían guardias. [12:11] Entonces bajaban, lo poquito que uno traía de dinero, realmente lo tenía que dar a ellos. La pasaporte tenia la visa. Por medio de la visa lo que contaba era un billete de $20 dólares para que te dejaran pasar. In El Salvador, I managed through my brother-in-law to get a visa for Mexico. It never happened because I could not go myself, so my brother-in-law had a contact and they did everything to get me the visa. It is a bit complicated in Mexico. At that time Mexico was like, well, it was, I have… since then I have never returned there, but they were bad. Not the people, but the same. They had checkpoints where they had guards. [12:11] So they would take the little bit of money that I had. I really had to give it to them. The passport had the visa. What mattered was a $20 dollar bill placed in the middle of the visa so that they would let you pass. On his memory of leaving El Salvador [12:35] Es algo de lo mas duro. Es duro porque en aquel momento yo estaba dejando incluso mucha gente que yo quería mucho. Que habíamos acompañado un periodo de lucha grande juntos, y uno cuando sale del país, ni tener valor de voltear para atrás. Ya te va pasando cuando ya vas avanzando en camino...ya el llegar al Distrito, me puse a trabajar en un taller de enderezar de pintura que era del cuñado de mi hermano. Y hice muchas amistades. El pueblo mexicano es muy lindo. [13:21] Los papas de la esposa de mi hermano eran de un pueblito que se llamaba Tlazmala en Guerrero. Y me iba yo a pasar los fines de semana y a veces ahí es mucho campo, muy bonito. Logre hacer muchos amigos en este pueblo, hasta que me llegue ser mexicano. Y ya, por medio de Miguel, él me entro con el alcalde, y bueno, con el alcalde. Luego ya al final ya saque los papeles, y ahí llego una sobrina mía, llego a México después y logre sacarle los papeles a ella también. [12:37] It is one the hardest things. It is hard because at that moment I was leaving also many people that I loved very much. We had accompanied each other in a great period of struggle together, and when you leave the country, you don’t have the courage to look back. It starts to happen to you when you advance on your path…when I arrived in the District [Mexico City]. I started to work in an autobody shop owned by my brother’s brother-in-law, and I made many friends. The Mexican people are very lovely. [13:21] The parents of my brother’s wife were from a town called Tlazmala in Guerrero. And I would go there to spend the weekends and other times. There is lots of countryside there, very beautiful. I made lots of friends in this town, until I managed to become Mexican. And this through Miguel, he introduced me to the mayor, and well, with the mayor afterwards I finally got my papers. A niece of mine arrived there. She arrived in Mexico after and I managed to also get papers for her. Y así fue como del Distrito, los familiares que tenia en los Estados Unidos, mis hermanos - tengo varios – me mandaron el dinero para comprar un boleto de avión para Tijuana y volamos del Distrito ya con mi sobrina a Tijuana. En Tijuana es un lugar en donde mucho, mucho inmigrante viene para pasar. Un día fuimos a almorzar con mi sobrina, y me paro inmigración en Tijuana. Me pidió los papeles. Le dimos los papeles. No hablábamos mucho, porque no teníamos mucho acento mexicano. Pero no tuvimos problemas. And that is how from Mexico City, the family members that I had in the United States – my brothers – I had many – sent me money to buy a airplane ticket to Tijuana and I flew from Mexico City with my niece to Tijuana. Tijuana is a place where many, many migrants come to cross. One day I had lunch with my niece, and Immigration stopped me in Tijuana. They asked for my papers. We gave them our papers. We didn’t speak much, because we didn’t have much of a Mexican accent. But we didn’t have any problems. [15:00] Y después estuvimos en un hotel, un hotel barato, realmente no un hotel de lujo, y mi hermano nos contacto con un coyote, y ahí del hotel nos trasladaron a una casita aislada cerca de la frontera. Y ya, una noche nos dijeron, vámonos, tiempo de ir y comenzamos a caminar. Para mi no era mucho. Estoy acostumbrado. Pero mi sobrina no aguantaba, porque era en el desierto. Era como dale, dale, porque era durante la noche. Teníamos que pasar todo este sector. Y bueno, me acuerdo que pasamos un highway, una carretera ancha, subimos una altura, y entramos a una casa, vea, ya en la madrugada. [15:00] Yes, and then we were in a hotel, a cheap hotel, really not a luxury hotel, and my brother put us in touch with a coyote, and from there in the hotel they moved us to an isolated house near the border. And then, one night they said to us, let’s go, time to go and we started to walk. For me it wasn’t much. I am used to it, but my niece couldn’t stand it, because it was in the desert. It was like, go, go, because it was during the night. We had to pass all of the area. And well, I remember that we passed a highway, a wide highway, we went up a slope, and we entered a house, already at dawn. [16:06] Y ahí ya para amanecer llego una van, una troca, y el truco era que venia, era como tenia una camita atrás, y en la cama costaban los niños, y debajo de la cama, veníamos nosotros. Una van, una troca. Por ejemplo, esta la minivan, la que yo tengo. Pues la van grande, de esas grandes que usan para viajar. No, no, es que es adentro. Digamos que así es la van así. Aquí vea, ya, ya. Usted ve así. Entonces, aquí va el chofer, no? En la parte de atrás va una cama. Así. Un bed. Small bed. Un bed, para los niños. We are here, and the babies were here sleeping. And then when immigration checked, the second point, they see the kids asleep here. They don’t want to wake up. Under the kids, we are, both of us, ok? Yes, and when the sun was about to rise, a van arrived, a truck. The trick was that it came with… was that it had a bed at the back, and on the bed, the children would lie down, and underneath the bed, was where we were. One van, one truck. For example, there’s the minivan that I have. Well, the big van, it was one of those that are used for traveling. No, no, it’s that it is inside. Let’s say that the van is like this. See here, yes, yes. You can see this. So, this is where the driver is, right? In the part at the back there is a bed. Like this. A bed. A bed. Small bed. A small bed. A bed, for the children. We are here, and the babies were here sleeping. And then when immigration checked, the second point, they see the kids asleep here. They don’t want to wake up. Under the kids, we are, both of us, ok? RRTeam: [17:51] So, this is already when you had crossed into the United States? Roberto: Yes, because the first point you had to cross by walk. And the second one, you know, they stop in some place. Checkpoint, and then after that checkpoint, you are in. RRTeam: So, that time there was two checkpoints? Roberto: Two checkpoints. RRTeam: Two checkpoints. So, the first one you crossed by walking? Roberto: Hmm, hmm...era como tela metálica. No, no, it was like a wire mesh. RRTeam: What’s the city on the American side? Roberto: But we went through to Los Angeles. RRTeam: So, you went through Los Angeles? Roberto: Los Ángeles. RRTeam: You hid under, you and your niece, were underneath this and then you were able to go through. What were you thinking? What was going through your mind at that time? Roberto: [18:45] You know, I don’t think much about that. The one thing I don’t want me to catch, you know, because I don’t want to go back. [18:55] But, una de las cosas más importantes es que traía papeles mexicanos, entonces no iba ir para El Salvador. Iba ir para México si me agarraban. Bueno, estuve en Los Ángeles por dos años. Tuve una hija en Los Ángeles. Ella nació el 5 de enero de ’87, y después de haber nacido un mes, arranque para Canadá. Entonces llegamos, volamos de Los Ángeles a Nueva York, y de Nueva York a Búfalo. Y en Búfalo nos esperaba una, era una asociación de monjas, un convento de monjas. But, one the most important things is that I had Mexican papers, so I wouldn’t go back to El Salvador. If they caught me, I would go back to Mexico. Well, I was in Los Angeles for two years. I had a daughter in Los Angeles. She was born January 5, 1987, and a month after she was born, I headed off to Canada. So we arrived, we flew from Los Angeles to New York, and from New York to Buffalo. And in Buffalo an association of nuns waited for us, a convent of nuns. [19:44] En ese entonces existía aquí una organización que trabajaba con los refugiados y ellos hacían los contactos. En Canadá. I am going to remember the name the organization, but… Pero ellos hicieron los contactos, porque mi hermano tenia una comadre que vivía aquí y ella hizo el contacto con ellos, para que al llegar aquí, pero creo que me estoy… como hace tanto tiempo. Creo que fue, si no fue así. Fue que llegamos, que había frontera abierta para Salvadoreños por el conflicto aquí en Canadá en este tiempo. At that time there was an organization here that worked with refugees and they made contact. In Canada. I am going to remember the name the organization, but… But they made contact, because my brother had a close female friend that lived here and she made contact with them, so that when we arrived here, but I think I am… since so much time has passed. I think it was, yes, it wasn’t like that. We arrived, here in Canada at that time there was an open border for Salvadorans due to the conflict. Pero el problema era que yo traía una niña con su mama mexicana. Entonces, no nos dejaron entrar. Me dejaban entrar a mi y a mi niña, pero no dejaban la mama, entonces dije, no, no, no. Había otra opción, era ir a este convento de monjas, y casarnos. But the problem was that I had a girl with her Mexican mom. So, they didn’t let us enter. They would let me and my girl enter, but they would not let the mom enter, so, I said, no, no, no. There was another option, it was to go to the nuns convent, and to get married. [21:24] Estando en este convento, porque había muchos refugiados, pero la mayor parte venían solos, sin pareja. Entonces buscaron una casa para nosotros, para los tres, y vivimos un mes en una casa de unos ex-militares estadounidenses. Y ahí al mes, ya pudimos, a partir de casarnos, pudimos pasar y entre aquí en marzo. At the convent, there were many refugees, but the majority came alone, without a partner. So they looked for a house for us, for the three of us, and for a month we lived in the house of some US ex-military people. And a month from then, we could, since getting married, we could pass and enter here in March. [21:59] No tuvimos problemas. La primera, si. Pero la segunda, fue solamente papeleo. Y mi hermano ya estaba acá. Y llegue, llegamos ahí nosotros. De ahí ya seguimos el papeleo nuestro y me fui a vivir de ahí a Queen y Ossington en la segunda planta de una casa. Y bueno, esa fue mi llegada. La sorpresa mas grande es que estaba frio. We didn’t have any problems. The first time, yes. But the second time, it was just paperwork. And I arrived, we arrived here. From there we continued with our paperwork and I went to from there to Queen and Ossington on the second floor of a house. And well, this was my arrival. The greatest surprise is that it was cold. [22:45] Bueno, yo no sabia nada de Canadá. Pero una de las cosas, no quería ser ilegal. Entonces… No se debía de llamar ilegal, porque todos tenemos derecho a vivir en donde nos de la gana. Es absurdo que un estadounidense puede llegar a la hora que le da la ganas a nuestros países, y nadie le dice nada en ninguna frontera, pero un salvadoreño no puede pisar terreno de ellos. Well, I didn’t know anything about Canada. But one of the things was, I didn’t want to be illegal. It shouldn’t be called illegal, because we all have the right to live wherever we feel like. It is absurd that a US person can arrive at any time that they feel like to our countries, and no one says anything at any border, but a Salvadoran cannot set foot on their land. [23:14] No que es bien injusto que nosotros tengamos que tener tanto problema para venir a estos países que no debía de llamarse ilegal en Estados Unidos porque ellos entran a nuestros países cuando les de la gana, entran y salen, y nadie les dice nada. ¿Porque la diferencia entre un latino y un anglosajón estadounidense, verdad? Para mi es totalmente injusto. Si nuestros países tuvieran dignidad y les hiciera lo mismo, ¿cómo se sintieran? Entonces a nosotros nos humillan al llegar a estos países, pero ellos llegan como al traspatio de su casa cuando llegan a los nuestros. [24:06] Me voy a saltar un poquito para poner un ejemplo. Hace 14 años, 14, 15 años nos casamos y yo. Y nosotros hicimos la solicitud para que mi mama viniera a nuestro casamiento. Y a pesar de todo lo que le mandamos, le negaron la visa a mi madre para que viniera al casamiento. Entonces, vemos la diferencia tan enorme. Esa barrera tan enorme entre nosotros y en este caso, los canadienses. No, it was very unjust that we have to had so many problems to come to these countries that we should not be called illegal in the United States because they enter our countries whenever they feel like it. They enter and leave, and nobody says anything. Because of the difference between a Latino person and a US English-speaking person, right? For me that is totally unjust. If our countries would have dignity and would do the same to them, how would they feel? So they humiliate us when we arrive to these countries, but they arrive like it’s the backyard of their house when they come to ours. I am going to jump ahead a bit to talk about an example. 14 years ago, 14, 15 years ago and I got married. And we made a visa request so that my mom could come to our wedding. And despite everything that we sent them, they denied my mother a visa to come to the wedding. So, we see the massive difference. This barrier between us and in this case, the Canadians, is so large. Después de llegar, tuvimos que llevar un proceso. Tuve un abogado muy bueno, muy bueno. Y había que poner toda la historia de tu vida, porque y todo eso, pero el abogado era magnifico, realmente. Y, me dieron los documentos. Creo que en dos años ya tenia mis papeles ya legales. After arriving, we had to go through a process. I had a very good lawyer, very good. And you had to put the whole story of your life, why and all that, but the lawyer was really marvellous, really. And, they gave me papers. I think that it was within two years already that I had my papers all legal. [25:17] [Los Estados Unidos] para mi es como una ilusión que venden…la realidad ya en este país, no varia mucho de la nuestra en Latinoamérica, en oportunidades. Porque, primero los salarios de un inmigrante, un ilegal son bastante malos. Bastante malos. Además las condiciones de este pueblo son pésimas. Mas que todo las condiciones de los inmigrantes y la comunidad negra. Yo digo que tuve la suerte de conocer las áreas de la comunidad morena, como Inglewood, y veía las casas destruidas. Aquella gente fumando droga, tomando licor, sin… una violencia permanente. Entonces, yo llegue a un punto que prefería llegar al país de nuevo, cuando salió la oportunidad de venir para Canadá. Pero, digo, no es nada agradable. United States for me is like an illusion that they sell. Because the reality that they sell in this country does not differ that much for ours in Latin America, in terms of opportunities. Because, first of all the salaries for an immigrant, an illegal, are really bad. Really bad. Also, the conditions of these people are terrible. Above all, the conditions of immigrants and the Black community. I say that I had the luck to get to know the areas where the Black community lived, like Inglewood, and I would see the destroyed houses. Those people smoking drugs, drinking alcohol, without… a permanent violence. So, I got to the point that I preferred to return to my country again when the opportunity came up to come to Canada. But, I say, that was not at all enjoyable. RRTeam: And how did you learn to come to Canada? Was it through someone else that you worked with, or how did you find out about this option? Roberto: [26:54] Por esta muchacha que vive en Canadá, Lucy. Tu la conoces. Ella fue la que nos dijo. Fui a aplicar, a llenar la aplicación en la Embajada Canadiense en California, en Los Ángeles, pero si iba a tardar un montón. Por eso decidimos venirnos. Through this woman that lives in Canada, Lucy. You know her. She was the one who told us. I went to apply, to fill out an application at the Canadian Embassy in California, in Los Angeles, but it was going to take a long time. That is why we decided to come here. RRTeam: And, while you were doing the whole process with the lawyer, at the Immigration and Refugee Board, and you had to prepare all of your documents and things like that, what do you remember of that time, of preparing and putting together your story? Roberto: [27:35] Tuve varias reuniones, creo que fueron dos reuniones grandes con el abogado, donde él grabó todo así como lo estamos haciendo acá. Y después de que la puso, la trascribieron, y este, la vimos. Entonces… Y con… tenia un amigo que se fue a trabajar a China, un canadiense muy buena gente, su familia. Y él me ayudaba también para intérprete, y fuimos viendo juntos, fuimos viendo juntos que me convenía, que no me convenía en mi historia. Fuimos sacando lo que no me convenía, y en donde había equivocaciones, porque hable en esa entonces de una de las marchas mas grandes en El Salvador, que era la marcha del 22 de enero de 1980. 22 de febrero. 1980. Que fuimos alrededor de 300,000 personas en la capital. Y en el documento solo habían puesto 3,000. Entonces arreglamos todo y al final, funciono. I had various meetings. I think it was two long meetings with the lawyer, where he recorded everything like we are doing so here. And after he recorded it, they transcribed it, and that, we looked over. So… And with… I had a friend that went to work in China. A Canadian, very good people, his family. And he also helped me as an interpreter, and we started to look over together, we looked over together what was beneficial for me to include, and what wasn’t beneficial to me in my history. We started to take out what wasn’t beneficial, and where there were errors, because I talked about one of the largest marches in El Salvador, that was the march of January 22, 1980. February 22. 1980. We were around 300,000 people in the capital. And in the document they had only put 3,000. So, we fixed everything and in the end, it worked out. [29:03] No es tan complicado, solo que es de cuidado, porque como uno cuenta la historia como es, y como te dice, decime como paso, aquí vamos a ver. El abogado es así. El contar la historia a veces es incomoda, pero no incomoda para mi, porque lo he vivido y lo volverá a vivir y lo haría mejor. Pero, al contarlo, cuando hay que quitarle. Como lo estamos grabando ahorita, pero después tu me llamas, esto no, como te parece esto, esto no va funcionar en Inmigración, porque te pueden… Porque como, por ejemplo, si vamos a ponerlo así. Poner que alguien estuvo involucrado en la izquierda armada. [29:58] Entonces te pongo como un ejemplo, pero las leyes, no importa la justeza por lo que lo hiciste. Lo que importa es el delito que cometiste de acuerdo a las leyes. Entonces… Entonces no ven lo justo de eso, sino que ven un delito de acuerdo a leyes. It isn’t that complicated. It just requires carefulness, because since you tell your history as it is, and as he says, tell me how it happened, let’s see here. The lawyer is like that. Telling our history is sometimes uncomfortable, but not uncomfortable for me, because I lived it and I would live it again and would do it better. But, in telling it, when to take something out. Like we are recording it now, but after you call me, and say this not, what do you think of this, this won’t work at Immigration, because they can… Because like, for example, if we are going to put it like this. Imagine if someone was involved in the armed Left. So, I give this to you as an example, but the law, doesn’t care about the fairness of why you did what you did. What matters is the crime that you committed according to the law. So… so they don’t see the fairness of this, but rather they see a crime according to the law. RRTeam: [30:30] When was it that you heard that you got refugee status, or what was that process after you submitted your application? Roberto: I don’t remember exactly, because it was a long time ago. I think the lawyer called me, you know, and he give me the news and I has to go to where he was working, in Finch and Bloor. Kipling and Bloor, sorry, in the Immigration… building. He said that… Que había sido aceptado y bueno, esa cuestión que te sentís contento porque ya no tienes que seguir con eso de seguir este proceso fastidioso de siempre andar pensando que va pasar con los papeles. Y ya. Y como le dijo no es como algo complicado. Bueno, es complicado siempre, porque uno, es como tienes que contar todo esto siempre. Bueno, ahora yo lo hago voluntario. Nadie me obliga hacerlo, pero en aquel entonces, había que hacerlo. I don’t remember exactly, because it was a long time ago. I think the lawyer called me, you know, and he give me the news and I has to go to where he was working, in Finch and Bloor. Kipling and Bloor, sorry, in the Immigration… building. He said that… That I had been accepted and well, that sense of being happy because you don’t have to continue to carry out that tiring process of always having to think what will happen with your papers. And it was done already. And like I said it wasn’t something complicated. Well, it is always complicated, because you always have to talk about everything. Well, now I do it voluntarily. No one is making me do it, but at that time, I had to do it. RRTeam: What does refuge mean to you? Roberto: [31:53] Mira, para nosotros, es una de las noticas mas bonitas, porque… Porque lo primero que me vino a la mente es volver a mi país. Y espera como algo que no podía hacer antes. ¿Me entiendes? Y al solo, después de que se firma los Acuerdos de Paz en 1992, iba para mi país, yo, de nuevo. [32:27] Y de ahí, bueno, quizás, hacer un paréntesis, volví en el ’99 por cuatro años. Como soy alguien que no me puedo estar quieto, sucedió el terremoto y organice un montón de organizaciones para ayudar a la gente en el pueblo. Y logramos construir como 160 casas de ayuda. Entonces, yo soy alguien que no me puedo estar quieto. Fuimos el año pasado y montamos esta asociación de cafetaleros. [31:53] Look, for us, it is some of the most beautiful news, because… Because the first thing that came to my mind was to be able to return to my country. It was something I couldn’t do before. Do you understand me? And only due to, after the signing of the Peace Accords in 1992, I would go to my country again. [32:27] And from there, well, perhaps I will digress, I returned in ’99 for four years. Since I am someone that cannot stay still, when the earthquake happened, I organized a lot of organizations to support people in the town. And we were able to build about 160 houses with funding. So, I am someone that cannot stay still. We went last year and set up an association of coffee-growing farmers. RRTeam: And this association, how did you find the people to be part of the association? Roberto: [33:10] Vamos a volver. Vamos a volver a cuando estuve aquí a los principios, okay? Una pregunta que no me has hecho. We are going to go backwards. We are going to go back to when I was first here. There is a question that you haven’t asked me. RRTeam: Oh ok, yes. Roberto: [33:25] Como… me la voy a hacer yo solito. ¿Cómo un inmigrante se acomoda a la sociedad nueva con otra lengua, otra cultura? How? I am going to ask it to myself. How does an immigrant settle into a new society with another language, another culture? Y fíjate que cuando nosotros llegamos, me incorpore a organizar… bueno, ya estaba organizado. Ya tenia su poquito de organización. And see, when we arrived, I got involved in organizing… well, it was already organized. It had a bit of organization. Primero estábamos en King, King y Dufferin. Y después conseguimos una iglesia, el sótano de una iglesia. Hacíamos eventos toditos los fines de semana. Y hacíamos fiestas enormes, con orquestas en el Scadding Court. [34:09] Entonces es una de las formas en que uno no pierde contacto con su comunidad, y se logra adaptar mas fácil al país. Entonces… y de ahí, he venido trabajando, casi siempre en organización aquí. First we were at King, King and Dufferin. And after, we got access to a church, to a church basement. We would do events every weekend. And we would do massive events, with orchestras at Scadding Court. So it is one of the ways in which you don’t lose contact with your community, and you can adapt more easily to the country. So… from then on, I have been working, almost always in an organization here. In that time when I came to Canada, we are so many, and that’s a few. And that few, we got together to do something. You know, it’s something beautiful to talk in your language, to eat pupusas. It’s something good. Maybe, talvez eso ha sido lo que también no justifico. Yo tendría que hablar perfecto ingles. Hablarlo, escribirlo, leerlo. No hay justificación, pero yo soy alguien que no me gusta depender y cuando yo tuve la oportunidad por medio… yo no entre en programa especial, porque este era programa que entraba pero no tenía mucho beneficio. Entonces, yo traía una niña, me fui a trabajar, y trabajar y meterme en la construcción de lleno y buscar vida por ahí. Y el ingles que aprendí, lo aprendí en la calle. In that time when I came to Canada, we are so many, and that’s a few. And that few, we got together to do something. You know, it’s something beautiful to talk in your language, to eat pupusas. It’s something good. Maybe, maybe that is something I can’t make excuses for. I should speak perfect English. Speak it, write it, read it. There is no excuse, but I am someone that doesn’t like to depend on anyone and when I had the opportunity through… I didn’t enter any special program, because it was a program that didn’t have many benefits. So, I had a daughter with me. I went to work. I worked and went into construction wholeheartedly and sought to create a life here. The English I learned, I learned on the street. [35:42] Había trabajado un poco en Los Ángeles, en construcción. Pero aquí no halle al principio. No conocía. El primero trabajo que tuve fue dishwasher. De ahí me hice periodista, porque fui a limpiar al Globe & Mail. Hacia la limpieza en el Globe & Mail. Y después fui viendo la construcción. Y conseguí trabajo con una compañía que trabajaba con el gobierno. [Public housing, right?] Ya. Comencé a trabajar con ellos y desde ahí, yo soy bien aquí me quedo. Y sigo trabajando con el hijo del dueño que se jubilo. Sigo trabajando en la misma compañía. I had worked a bit in Los Angeles, in construction. But here I didn’t find anything at first. I didn’t know much. The first job I had was as a dishwasher. From there I became a journalist, because I went to clean at the Globe & Mail. I did the cleaning at the Globe & Mail. And after I went looking into construction. I got work with a company that worked with the government. [Public housing, right?] Yes. I started to work with them and from there, I am like I am staying here. I continue to work with the son of the owner who retired. I continue to work at the same company. RRTeam: [36:46] And what does, what did the organizing cultural things, what did it bring to you and others? Roberto: [36:53] Es algo bonito, porque es como involucrarte con la comunidad, ayudar gente, porque en la etapa de por ejemplo, cuando vino la gente después de la ofensiva, se les ayudo mucho en buscar donde viviera, en ver que tuvieran un lugar donde llegar. Habían muchas cosas. Siempre organización traía mucha satisfacción. También trae retos. Vea, que a veces son duros. [36:53] It is something beautiful, because it is like getting involved in the community, helping people, because in the period when, for example, people came after the big offensive, we helped them a lot in finding places to live, to make sure that they had a place to arrive at. There were many things. Organizing always brings a lot of satisfaction. It also brings challenges. Sometimes it is hard. [37:24] [In] ’99. I want to go back [to El Salvador]. I want to start to live there permanent, but, pero la mala suerte, en el 2001, hubieron dos terremotos. El 13 de enero y el 13 de febrero. Y eso destruyo a mi pueblo, se lo acabo, completamente, completito, al nivel que tuve que volver para hacerle, para construirle la casa a mi mama. De ahí, solo he ido y venido. El periodo mas largo fue el año pasado que fuimos. Bueno, no fuimos para El Salvador honestamente. Íbamos para Nicaragua a trabajar con CUSO, pero entonces se dieron unos problemas en Nicaragua, los problemas políticos en abril, y CUSO cerro la oficina. Y esta casa la teníamos alquilada por un contrato de un año. Entonces le digo a ella, no, aquí vamos a El Salvador. [In] ’99. I want to go back [to El Salvador]. I want to start to live there permanent, but due to bad luck, in 2001, there were two earthquakes. On January 13 and February 13. And this destroyed my town, it finished it off completely, completely, to the point that I had to return to help build my mom’s house. From then, I have only gone back and forth. The longest period was last year when we went. Well, we didn’t go to El Salvador honestly. We were going to Nicaragua to work with CUSO, but then some problems arose in Nicaragua, the political problems in April, and CUSO closed the office. We had this house rented for a year. So I say to her, no, let’s go to El Salvador. RRTeam: [38:35] What did it feel like living, going back in 1999, having left the country for over 10 years, for over a decade? What was that like? Roberto: [38:52] Mira, no se ustedes, pero mi concepto es que donde naciste es donde quieres llegar, volver y vivir. En mi pueblo a pesar de todos los amigos que perdí, siempre hay nuevos amigos que hice. Y a mi regresar es como algo… abandonar mi país me duele todo el tiempo. Cuando yo voy, y yo salgo con un sentimiento enorme, porque hay esta donde nací, esta mi familia, están mis raíces, verdad. [39:37] Yo felicito a quien se adapta y vive aquí y se olvido. Lo felicito porque es feliz aquí. Pero yo toda la vida he estado partido entre allá y aquí. Canadá lo quiero, es mi segunda patria. Nunca me podría desligar de Canadá. Primero, tengo hijos acá, entonces uno va en donde esta sus hijos. Ya todos están grandotes, pero siempre los quiere ver uno. Tengo dos en Quebec, en Montreal. I don’t know about for you, but my idea is that where you’re born is where you want to arrive, return, and live. In my town despite all of the friends that I lost, I have always made new friends. And when I return it is like something… to have left my country is something that hurts me all of the time. When I go, lots of big emotions come out, because that is where I was born, where my family is, where my roots are, really. I congratulate whoever is able to adapt and live here and can forget. I congratulate them because they are happy here. But all of my life I have been divided in two between there and here. I love Canada, it’s my second homeland. I could never disconnect myself from Canada. First of all, I have children here, so you go wherever your children are. They are all grown up, but I always want to see them. I have two in Quebec, in Montreal. RRTeam: [40:36] I’d like to ask… I’d like to ask you some questions about the time when you left El Salvador, the first time you left El Salvador. So, you were organizing and then you had to be kind of clandestine in the smaller villages. Can you tell us a bit more about what happened, what were the circumstances around why you decided to leave at the time you did? Roberto: [41:10] Primero, como dejamos un espacio, verdad. First of all, we left a lot out, right. You talk about 1984. First, we leave some space between ‘80/’81 to ’84. In that period, it’s a long, long history too. A lot of things happened. When I left my country, I was tired, you know. You know, the process take a long, you know, and I want to take a break and coming out of the country. And the only way you can relax, porque in the country always you have to… you always, you worry. You don’t have peace in that time. You have to move, different ways. That one is to the end after four years, five years, you know, it is something very hard, you get a little bit crazy to the end, because so many things in your mind. [42:37] It was one of the more hard decisions to take, you know. Because in that period you meet a lot of friends, a lot of compañeros, and one day you have to decide to go … because ya no sentís que estas aportando mucho, porque hay demasiado dentro. Entonces, hay que salir. Yo pensaba regresar y ya nunca volví. Es que le decía que cuando yo salí, esa era una de las decisiones mas duras. Vea, porque en este periodo, uno conoce muchos compañeros, muchos trabajos, mucha gente linda, y hay un momento que hay que decidirte irte porque ya no estas dando lo… En tu cabeza, hay demasiado. It was one of the more hard decisions to take, you know. Because in that period you meet a lot of friends, a lot of compañeros, and one day you have to decide to go …because you no longer feel that you are contributing much, because there is too much going on. So, you have to leave. I thought I was going to return and I never returned. It was like I was telling you, when I left, it was one of the most difficult decisions. See, because in that period, you know so many comrades, much work, lots of lovely people, and there is a moment that you decide to go because you are no longer giving the… In your mind, there is too much. RRTeam: [43:33] When you listen to the news now about Central America and people crossing the US-Canada border, what do you think of, what do you think of that? [43:46] Podríamos llegar a repetir lo mismo quizás, poniéndole, poniéndole en contexto en este momento. Porque volvemos a lo mismo, ¿verdad? Es el problema, por ejemplo, del loco del Trump queriendo armar un gran muro, ¿verdad? para que la gente no venga. [44:12] ¿Qué tal si nosotros le armáramos un muro a ellos? De allá, no le dejáramos entrar ningún mineral de Latinoamérica. Todo el alimento que ellos reciban de nuestras tierras. Todo el petróleo de Sur América. Entonces es como, volvemos a lo mismo, es injusto. Y el problema no es que nosotros no tengamos recursos. El problema es que todos los recursos se no lo llevan casi robados. Me acuerdo yo en cosas que he leído sobre historias de cómo, por ejemplo, en Venezuela pon, en la época, hace unos… cuanto podemos decir, 20 años atrás pongamos. Pongamos hace 20 años. Ellos pagaban el barril de petróleo a $7 dólares. Y el de mala calidad valía $1 dólar. We could repeat the same perhaps, putting it all in context in this moment. Because we come back to the same, right? It is the problem, for example, of the crazy Trump wanting to build a big wall, right, so that people don’t come. What if we built a wall against them? From there, we wouldn’t let any mineral enter from Latin America. All of the food that they receive from our lands. All of the petroleum from South America. So, it is like returning to the same, it’s unjust. And the problem isn’t that we don’t have resources. The problem is that they take the resources from us almost stolen. I remember things that I have read about stories of how, for example, in Venezeula, during the period, a few… let’s say, 20 years ago. Let’s say, 20 years ago. They paid $7 for a barrel of petroleum. And the bad quality one was worth $1. [45:44] Volvamos mas reciente. Hace tres años o quatro años, la Pacific Rim en El Salvador quería sacar todo el oro que nosotros tenemos en el norte del país, pero resulta que por cada quilate, no se que era, iban a dar $1 dólar. O sea, El Salvador va a costar con toda la contaminación por el cianuro, contaminar nuestras aguas, vea, para que un dólar ni siquiera cubra los gastos y el desastre que va causar. Pongo esto, porque no somos nosotros realmente al final los que necesitamos de las potencias. Son ellos que necesitan nuestros recursos, pero no los pagan. Un reciente del año… un ejemplo de este año pasado. Nosotros producimos café en la zona. Es algo que manejamos al dedo, ¿verdad? Y por ejemplo, el año pasado, el precio en tiempo de temporada estuvo a 48 centavos la libra. Let’s come back to something more recent. Three or four years ago, Pacific Rim in El Salvador wanted to take all of the gold that we had in the north of the country, but it turned out that for each karat, I don’t know what it was, they would give $1. That is, El Salvador will pay with all of the contamination due to the cyanide, with the contamination of our waters, so that one dollar which does not even cover the costs and the disaster that it would cause. I say this, because we are not really those who in the end need the big powers. It is them that need our resources, but they don’t pay for them. A recent example… an example from the past year. We produce coffee in the area. It is something that we know how to work very well. And, for example, the past year, the price during the peak season was at 48 cents a pound. [47:44] Nosotros en la costa para producir esta libra, una libra de café gastamos entre 60 y 70 centavos. Y todo el café nuestro donde ven a dar. Es injusto, pero cuando le insistís que sean justos con nosotros, con Latinoamérica, vea, lo llaman loco. [48:18] Entonces, cuando tu me preguntas, que pasa, que piensa de los inmigrantes, de estas caravanas, de Honduras, de El Salvador, de Sur América, de donde sea. Caravanas de gente que viene. Es gente que porque en nuestros países no se le ha dado la asistencia necesaria para que pueden sobrevivir, ni los recursos necesarios. [48:59] Vamos a hacer, digamos, pongamos en Centro América. Aquí tenemos Nicaragua. Aquí tenemos Honduras. Aquí tenemos El Salvador. Y así, Guatemala. Ustedes me dicen de donde es que vinieron los inmigrantes el año pasado, las caravanas. El Salvador. Guatemala. Las caravanas vinieron de Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala. ¿Pero porque no venían de Nicaragua? Porque es el país que mas les ha hallado, les ha ayudado, y les ha dado soporte económico a las comunidades. Por eso no venían las cantidades de aquí. Entonces esta comprobado que si vos invertís en tu pueblo, la gente no tiene necesidad de irse. Us on the Coast to produce that pound, for a pound of coffee we spend between 60 and 70 cents. And all of our coffee where does it end up. It is unjust, but when you insist that they be just with us, with Latin America, they call you crazy. So, when you ask me, what happens, what do you thank about the migrants, about those caravans, from Honduras, from El Salvador, from South America, from wherever. Caravans of people that come. It’s people that because in our countries they haven’t been given the support they need to survive, nor the resources they need. Let’s do this, let’s say, here is Central America. Here we have Nicaragua. Here we have Honduras. Here we have El Salvador. And here, Guatemala. You tell me from where the migrants in the past year came from, the caravans. El Salvador. Guatemala. The caravans came from Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala. But why didn’t they come from Nicaragua? Because it is the country that has most helped people, and has given economic support to communities. That’s why the masses didn’t come from there. So it is proven that if you invest in your people, the people don’t have to leave. RRTeam: [50:30] Ok. That’s a good note to end on. Thank you. Thank you. Roberto: No se si lo ultimo fue dentro de la pregunta, pero yo lo hice como… I don’t know if the last bit that I said answered your question, but I did it as…